Aftermarket Speakers???

quote: "i disagree with AA on ONLY amping the fronts.

ideally, every speaker in your car should be amped. You need a 4 channel amp, so you can turn the power down on the 6x9's so they dont overpower the front speakers."

Not that you're wrong, but there are many ways to enjoy music. I look at it differently than a lot of people. Maybe if I explain where I'm coming from, it will make better sense. Ideally, you should have NO rear speakers at all.

Everyone has an idea in their head of what perfect music sounds like. Some people think it's a THX certified home theater, some enjoy 150dB bass notes, some people like the raw, electronic sound of a recording room... but for me, truly good-sounding music is convincingly real and transparent... like there are no speakers, just instruments and voices on the dashboard. Not surprisingly, it has been shown that for very realistic sound reproduction, having a fewer number of speakers can be better than having too many.

As an example, I have a small table radio in my living room called a Tivoli Audio model One. It has a single high quality 3" speaker, a perfectly tuned cabinet, and very simple controls. It plays mono, not stereo, but the quality is unbelievable for such a small radio. It even has good bass, and gets quite loud. Anyway, it just shows what can be done with only a single small speaker and some clean power. The Bose Wave Radio is another example. For as much criticism as Bose gets, go listen to a Wave Radio and tell me it sounds bad.

But the Tivoli One and Bose Wave Radio are just table radios, not really intended for serious listening. For that, you need two-speakers in stereo. For a good demonstration of how good stereo can sound, just listen through a set of high-end over-the-ear headphones. And for very clean reproduction of dynamic sound with extended frequencies, you'll need to use multiple drivers, a 2-way or 3-way system. But this would still be considered a fairly simple set-up: 5 drivers total (a tweeter and midwoofer for each left and right channel + a subwoofer).

The first time I listened to a "simple" high-end stereo system in a competition car, I was just blown away. To this day, I've never heard any sound system that was as good as those cars competing for sound quality 10-15 years ago. I've been to a lot of concert halls, theaters, stereo shops... almost nothing compares to those simple stereo set-ups, not Dolby Digital, not THX Certified, not anything.

The point I'm trying to make is that when you're listening to real music, it comes from in front of you. It comes from only a few point sources (instruments and vocal cords). To reproduce good sound, you need only use a small number of high quality speakers. You don't need extra tweeters on the A-pillar, you don't need a center channel, and you don't even need 6x9"s in the rear. The main reason I power my rears with the stock head is that I almost always have them turned off.

If you want to move to the next level, and use rear fill for what it's meant for (making the room feel larger), you need to use some kind of delay circuit to slightly slow down the rear channel a few milliseconds. This fools your ears by reproducing a slight echo, so it seems like you're in a concert hall. Some aftermarket heads have this feature built-in, but you don't need a lot of power to make it work. An real echo has to bounce off the rear wall and back, so it has very little sound energy.

But for most of us, using rear delay isn't really practical. You need to be very serious about audio to try it. So instead what most people do is just add speakers back there and call it "rear fill", thinking if you turn it down it will have the same effect. It really doesn't help, imo. Maybe it sounds good to some folks, but I would rather invest in two ultra clean front channels and an amp instead of splitting up my resources to buy rear speakers (good 6x9"s ain't cheap) and a bigger amp to power everything. My way isn't the only way, but lots of people who love music will agree with me. Like with a lot of things, the "less is more" rule holds true here.

When you consider that the rear-mounted 6x9" idea was born out of the automotive industry's need to fit a pair conveniently behind passenger's heads, you have to wonder if it's the best way. It wasn't done that way for the best sound, it was done for the best fit.

Ok, well, I'm not much of a puritan. I'm gonna boost all four speakers and have the option to tune each one separately if I feel the need to. Besides, the 6x9's will have better bass. I listen to DJ Tiesto a lot, and he's a Trance artist, so heavy, high quality bass is important. If I'm gonna do a professional job when I buy a new car, I'll keep this in mind, but if I were me I'd opt for the factory advanced audio system, whatever the brand may be.

quote: "...heavy, high quality bass is important."

Have you considered a dedicated subwoofer?

I have, but I've decided to not bother with it. I'm afraid it'll blow the electric system before its time has come. If it does, and I have the entire car rewired, then I'll change out the amp I'm getting and have 1 or 2 put in the MAMMOTH trunk. For now, no sub.

Good points with the sound range, but I shop by name and purpose. When I have a house, TV, and money, I know I'm getting a Bose home system hooked up. When I buy a car like a Cadillac, I know to get the Bose system(my grandfather got the CTS Bose edition a while back, AWESOME). But when I shop for aftermarket car audio, I know names like Infinity and Alpine won't let me down with speakers, a Pioneer or JL amp, and if I want subs I'd go with Kicker or MTX. Whatever I do wind up putting in it won't be for a while, I haven't even driven my car yet! Unregistered until I get my lisence in February, and then I'll wait until March or so to have the system installed.

Those are all good names. I've owned every one of them, and had great results. Other good names to consider: a/d/s (old), AudioControl, Rockford Fosgate (old), US amps, Clarion, Nakamichi, SAS/Bazooka, HiFonics, Adire, Audiomobile, DD/Digital Designs, Crystal, ID/Image Dynamics, Phoenix Gold, Xtant, Zapco, Lanzar (old), Focal, Diamond Audio, Rainbow, Dynaudio, and PPI/Precision Power.

I bought 2 punch 40i DSM amps in 1994. Used them in 3 cars, including about 5 years in a rusty, water-logged '76 Dodge. I used one for a while to power 3 subs mono (1.6 ohm, no fans). Still have them, and these little monsters still work!

I've not owned any new RF stuff, but the older amps are incredible. Seems everyone has something negative to say about their newer products. Maybe it has something to do with Wayne Harris, who used to be in charge. Formerly he worked at Orion, also a good name in the business.

AA wrote:

I bought 2 punch 40i DSM amps in 1994. Used them in 3 cars, including about 5 years in a rusty, water-logged '76 Dodge. I used one for a while to power 3 subs mono (1.6 ohm, no fans). Still have them, and these little monsters still work!

I've not owned any new RF stuff, but the older amps are incredible. Seems everyone has something negative to say about their newer products. Maybe it has something to do with Wayne Harris, who used to be in charge. Formerly he worked at Orion, also a good name in the business.

i remember orion amps...high dollar high output amps. Never seen a cheap one.

every now and then I run across someone with old RF amps...they wont sell them.

My Infinity 5022i's are due from UPS in a couple of hours, hopefully, and I'm having some questions about how to put them in. I looked at the factory front speakers, and I'm confused. There's a plug like there is for the back speakers, but I think that leads to the tweeter. Does it? I'm also unsure of how to wire them up. Do I just cut the wires, strip them back a bit, and solder them to the new speaker terminals? Black is negative and red is positive, I know. I don't know if any wire extenders come with these speakers, only time will tell!

1998 Riv wrote:

I dropped in a $40 set of Pioneer 5.25 coaxials this summer, and they sound a fair bit better than OEM. I'm not ready to spend a lot of money on a sound system, as much as I'd like to. Not for booming bass, just for sound quality. I should check out some options at a couple local auto sound shops next summer...

Are these drop in plug/play replacements. I just want to replace the speaker with one that does not rattle/distort.
Thanks
Bert

Front speakers won't be plug and play, moses. The rear speakers can be if you buy a speaker harness(Cable that plugs into the stock connection and clips onto the speaker terminals. Look in your trunk and you'll know what connection I'm talking about.) and force them in, but the front ones you have to wire up. I highly recommend Infinity 5022i's for the front and Infinity 9623i's for the back. You can get them half of normal price on amazon.com, so the rear runs $90 after shipping and the front run $67 after shipping. Speaker harnesses from Crutchfield are $10 per pair, and you only need one pair.

Can anyone help?

I bought mine from Crutchfield and they came with wire adapters which worked great. Except they didn't leave any connection for the tweeter. At first I just connected the speakers straight up. I thought they didn't sound right (muddy, distorted) so I hooked the tweeters back up and all sounded right again. I spliced the tweeters directly into the adapter harness. You don't need to take the tweeters out to do any of this.

These are two-way speakers, so I don't care about the factory tweeter. UPS also decided that since there was bad weather on Thursday in NY, that they can't get them out to me on Saturday, so I will have to wait until Monday. If I don't have wire adapters, which I don't think will work for the front speakers anyway, how to I install them? Plus, I found a YELLOW wire going to the speaker!!! What the hell?!

I'm not sure if yours are any different then my 97, but the red and black DO go to the tweeter, so you won't be needing those unless you do want to hook them back up.. there will be two other colored wires for your source that you'll be using, i'm not sure which is positive though, I just looked on my stock speakers which color was positive and which is negative, so you could do the same. But yeah, if you do have a soldering gun, that would be a good option.

There's a black, red, and yellow wire leading to the speaker, then there's a connection where the black and red continue to the tweeter. Wasn't there a whole diagram of the speaker wiring and connections somewhere on here?

Oh yeah, forgot you have a '95. sorry. I don't know what the speakers are like in the '95.

Trying doing an advance search for "Wiring"; see what comes up.

No need, I found everything I need here: https://rivperformance.editboard.com/audio-electronics-f7/concert-sound-ii-wiring-diagram-t3.htm

You posted it, remember?

the speakers in your door only have one source in? and the two out? weird.

I finally have my Infinity 5022i's and 9623i's hooked up, and listened to some music a couple of days ago on my new system. It's AWESOME, and delivers on everything you could ask for. Highs, mids, lows, bass, all at the same time.

The third song I played was Pon De Replay through the tape deck with my Zune. A bass-intensive song for anyone who somehow hasn't heard it yet. When I installed the speakers, I left on the switch (Reference Series) that gave the speakers +3 db overall. With that on and the volume about 4/5 the way up, the display in the radio would dim with the bass. After about 15 seconds, it shut off, then 10 seconds later it put on my CD player...then I told it to stop and it put on the radio. "Please, anything but the tape! Not the tape again!" Alex would've been saying. Then I told it to go back to the tape, turned the volume down to 3/4, and there was very little noticable bass-dimming. Should I be worried about this, or just not blast my music as I wouldn't be doing anyway? I'm on the stock radio head and don't plan on changing to an aftermarket. Too ugly for me.

Since then, I haven't seen any dim from anything but the tape deck. One More Time in the CD player was perfect, heavy bass and crisp highs, but no dimming. Radio turned up, nothing out of the ordinary there. It seems like it's just the tape deck that acts up. It could be because the CD player is a separate module whereas the tape is on the same panel or something...I don't know. But no dim from anything else.

First thing, the +3db switch is most likely a tweeter attenuator, for balancing out the sound. +3db switched on makes the highs sound twice at bright as with it set to "flat". This is useful because sometimes the tweeters can be aimed directly at your ears or a window (+3db off, flat), and other times they must be aimed at your leg (+3db on). Check if this is the case. I've never heard of a switch that adds output to the entire speaker response. That would be pointless.

That being the case, the switch probably didn't cause the dimming (tweeters don't draw much power). Your tape deck didn't cause it either. Most likely it was the program material on the tape, the music. Play the same song on a CD and the same thing will happen. The extreme low bass was too much for the stock head to handle, so it likely clipped the signal (distorted the bass). You can't always hear distorted bass because our ears aren't sensitive that low. Since the head's power supply was making all the Watts it could, the display dimmed as a result.

Simple solution. You need an amplifier, or else you need to turn it down. You won't hurt the car, but the head unit may die if you keep testing it.

Using aftermarket high output (which our stock amplifier sees as low efficiency) speakers, it is already strained a bit more just to put out the same volume of sound that the factory speakers produce. Ideally, using an aftermarket head unit (usually with a versatile MOSFET amp) is the simplest way to solve that issue, assuming that you wish to listen to those beats louder than what the factory system can do. If you're dead set on keeping that stock deck, a 2 or 4 channel amplifier, like Aaron said would be the logical solution if you're up to spending a few more bucks and hookin it up. My only beef with that is that you are still somewhat limited by the factory crossover and harmonic table

Quote :

My only beef with that is that you are still somewhat limited by the factory crossover and harmonic table

Whuh?

The frequency profile of the amplifier is designed to accommodate an entirely different type of speaker system. It's not typical to be this unlucky but I have seen where an auxiliary amp will pick up very audible amounts of THD (total harmonic distortion) as a result of one or more of the noise filters in the unit being out of specified ranges on the stock deck. It sounds like a constant or wavy buzzing with or without music playing. It's all just a result of the limitations and quality of the electronics. Heat / cold can have a large effect on it as well as various specifications you can view on the amp its self. Sensitivity rated in a Db ratio can have an impact but Most amps will specify a static THD rating in various impedance circumstances that can potentially have a larger impact. Ironically, you'll find that the name brand products don't necessarily have better ratings in these areas.

You may get away without so much as a peep and be satisfied with how it all sounds together. I'm just kind of letting you know of what I've experienced so you know what you've got on your plate a little bit