Aftermarket Speakers???

I love my Focals. They have been in the car for 3 years and over 100,000 miles. If the car is rollin' the speakers are rockin'.

http://cgi.ebay.com/130A1-FOCAL-5-25-2-WAY-COMPONENT-SPEAKERS-NEW-130-A1-/110570189916?pt=Car_Speakers&hash=item19be7f345c

These are Buy-it-Now for $249

Other top of the line makers like Alpine, Infinity and a few others would work.

I ended up going with the Alpine spx-13ref. They included an adapter to attach the tweeter so it is over the woofer. It is similar to how AA has his tweeter mounted. They sound great and have some good midbass. I like how the tinsels are attached on the Alpine woofers. They are flat and run along the bottom and then attach to the woofer. Shouldn't have any problems with the tinsels breaking. Installation was easy since I already had the car wired for components.

So what's behind the factory tweeter in the door? Is there anything preventing you from putting a second 5 1/4" coax there? Obviously it looks like you'd have to do some grinding, cutting, fitting, but it looks like you may be able to fit a second set of 5 1/4's up front if you were so inclined to do so.

VegasScott

I'd be more inclined to install tweeters on the A-pillar trim than a second set of 5 1/4s. They fire the wrong way (directly at each other) anyway. Would be better off mounting a smaller speaker with a ring enabling you to aim it toward the passengers somewhat rather than the 5 1/4 that is in there aimed at their feet, actually. Also it would not be a waste of time to do the math about the interior volume of the doors. I suspect they are not efficient enclosures and should be smaller with a tuned port, but I have not calculated the volume, or thought of improvements. A tuning box to fit over back of speaker made of aluminum coil stock (like for trim fascia on a house) coated wtih Dynamat or one of its cousins and having a tuned distributed port (several small holes) comes to mind.

So what's behind the stock tweeter?

VegasScott

Just air space behind the tweeter. You could possibly enlarge the mounting hole to fit a 2nd coaxial, but not sure why you'd want to. Wouldn't improve the sound, imo (multiple tweeters usually not good). Buy a single pair of fronts for the same money you'd spend on two pair - will have a better performing set-up in the end.

AA wrote:

Buy a single pair of fronts for the same money you'd spend on two pair - will have a better performing set-up in the end.

I'd agree whole heartedly to that statement. The first business I started was based upon creating stereo enclosures for the VW crowd. I'm totally into the stealth install. Guys would take out their rear seats and fill it with a wall of speakers (early 90s). I hated that. So I designed custom molded abs kick panels for the VW that would allow for proper "staging" of the sound system. I also created the first ready made sub enclosure for 10" subs that would fit BEHIND the rear seat. Also, I mounted my headunits in the glove boxes of the early VWs because they had all metal dashes. (Borrowed the idea from the street rod crowd) Young dumb kids would hack the hell out of the vintage dashes to install their stereos and ruin the VW forever. I did all that without an education in sound systems! LOL! I was lucky enough to turn the eye of the now defunct VW Trends magazine in March 1995 and I was in business. It didn't hurt that the editor of VW Trends was a stereo guy... A year later, he went on to become the editor of AutoSound and Security magazine. (Dan Leadbetter) I quickly found out that VW people are cheap and I wasn't making squat. I dabbled in Corvettes because one of my VW customers was also a vette guy. I did alright with the Vettes because those guys have the money. I even distributed through Mid America and Auto Accessories of America. But there wasn't enough revenue to make it a full time business. Sold the business I had and moved on.

I then went on and took some classes that were offered by Metra? I think? I got their installer certificate, worked for a month as an installer and quit because I sold more than I installed. LOL! I've been pretty much in sales or business ever since. I got sick of the BOOM and the guys that wanted champain on a beer budget, and fixing everybody's crappy installed junk. I dropped the stereo hobby like a bad habbit and got into racing VWs.

I'm not looking to complicate things with my upgrade. I don't have the luxury of time. I've just landed my dream job in medical device and I'm always studying. I think I'll pop for some Infinity speakers for the front and rear, and then pop for a touch screen double din once I sell some product! I may even let them install the headunit if I don't have the time. My taste in music has changed and I don't do the "club" type music anymore. However, I have started listening to some urban contemporary smooth jazz. It's an upbeat funk type sound. If you ever want to know how good a system can sound, listen to some jazz on your system and see if your highs and mids are as good as your thumping bass.

AA I was very impressed with your knowledge of the systems! I remember when Sony first started experimenting with a joystick controlled sound system and delaying speaker function so to make the driver feel as if he was truly sitting centered between the front speakers. That was some bad ass stuff! I'm so out of the loop now. I don't have a ton of time to re-educate myself. So I've really enjoyed what you've had to offer to others in this thread. It's easy to spot guys who know what they are talking about. So thanks!

VegasScott

Likewise, you seem to know your share on the subject. It's a good thing you got out of the business, because the internet killed it. No one needs to visit a stereo shop anymore - they can order low-priced equip and read about how to install it on their own. It won't be quite as good as the work you guys were doing back then, but it will be close enough. Plus, you have OEM doing stuff like including quality heads and subs pre-installed, so it's a lot easier to fill in the gaps and end up with a near competition level sound.

I was never in the stereo business, but I've also dabbled in custom sub enclosures and a couple kick-panel installations. It's good to hear someone else who's gone to those lengths and can appreciate the results. I used to subscribe to Auto Sound & Security, Car Stereo Review, and CA & Electronics. I don't even know if they are around any more. I had a letter published in one, with a question very close to the topic in this thread. David Clark responded, starting me on the road to understanding what makes a food front stage. Much reading and experimenting later, I figured out that the fewer point sources you have (subs being the exception), the cleaner it will generally sound. I'm not a rear speaker guy, obviously.

Sqrivi has some spot-on stereo knowledge in his install thread. Check it out - I'm sure he'd be interested in hearing your opinions on his current system in progress.

Soooooo....

What about some custom kick panels for the Riv?

This is the best that I could do for a stealth sub and amp install. Sub is Alpine 1042 S Series and both the amps are 5 channels.
Phase 2 with Alpine V12 MRV-F450


Phase 5 with Alpine PDX-5


The box is a sealed design to minimize the space it takes up in the trunk. I used an online calculator that uses the Thiele-Small parameters to calculate volume. Later Benchmark Soundworks stuffed some fiberglass in it which made it effectively a little larger. I has a sloped back to fit tighter against back seat. All cables are hidden.

Could a custom enclosure be made to fit a JL 13TW5 13" woofer (which has very little depth) in the back corner of the trunk?
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs_pages.php?page_id=245

sburch23 wrote:

Could a custom enclosure be made to fit a JL 13TW5 13" woofer (which has very little depth) in the back corner of the trunk?
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs_pages.php?page_id=245

A box would not be to difficult, there is plenty of room. Could be a very cool/stealth install.

sburch23 wrote:

Soooooo....

What about some custom kick panels for the Riv?

I've got about as much interest in doing that as I do in cleaning up the dog crap in my backyard right now. LOL!

I'm swamped with the new gig, and being the family man. The Riv is a big car and you could definitely do some awesome things in it in regard to a healthy stereo upgrade. My heart just isn't in it anymore to create the time I'd need to make parts for the car. I dropped the stereo bit a long time ago, to get into racing VWs. I like making HP over dB's now.

If someone were to put the time and effort into creating these kick panel speaker panels, they'd never get their return on investment. There's just not the volume of cars out there to support the project. That's probably why you can't find them anywhere now. But I bet you could still find panels for 95-99 civics or accords.

I'm not trying to show a bad attitude here, although I can see how it would look like that. I just don't get into this stuff as much as I used to. Like I said, my modification would be replacement speakers, no new wiring, and phase II would be a touch screen double din. Besides, if I mod'ed my car, I'd have to change my signature below.

VegasScott

Fair enough answer. I do not know how much time or expense would be involved to make a pair of enclosures so I was asking. It seems that the location would be better for front stage imaging.

I like the idea of a stealth installs.

Imo, if you're doing kick panels, they might as well be custom anyway. The Q-logics that are just molded plastic baffles. I don't think slapping them in would work for me. When I did mine years ago, they were actual enclosures made of wood and bondo, then permanently attached in the kicks. I've also cut the sheet metal in the fenders to mount drivers. Have seen others who actually welded in steel plate to get a rigid surface to mount the drivers.

I found these images in 2003, so there's at least one couple kick-panel Riv out there:

See! That's exactly what I was thinking when I asked what was behind the factory tweeter! Yes, that is a modified door panel, but I was trying to see if you could do it the lazy way! Those kick panels are VERY nice and look like they fit very well. That's basically how I would design them, then make a positive and negative mold and knock them out with ABS for the VW crowd. The VW guys are cheap, and don't want to pay for nicer higher quality ones. So I'd pop them out quickly with ABS and call it "close enough" because that's all their market would support. I hated it!

For the few guys willing to fork down some bucks, I'd go the MDF bondo method and make custom speaker screens and all. Those were fun projects, but too far and few between.

VegasScott

The main problem with using the stock tweeter location, imo, would be that it's not a very ideal path to the listeners' ears. In my car, my seats sit pretty far forward, so the tweeters would fire directly into the sides of the seats! The advantage of true kicks is twofold: 1) the speakers have a more unobstructed path to the listening area. Legs do block direct on-axis sound, but off-axis will radiate well. 2) more equal path lengths for both drivers' and passengers' ears. This adds realism and enhances the stage.

Another way to accomplish this is extreme forward dash mounting, which is what sqrivi is doing with his custom install. Much, much more difficult to do, but probably a better final result for sound quality, and very stealthy!

how do you set the parking brake with that speakerbox apparently in the way?

They can be designed to allow the brake to function. Not sure if the above photo took it into consideration. One solution is to modify the brake pedal by bending it, or can sometimes remount it for better clearance.

It appears that the parking brake would pivot up and away. There isn't a whole lot of kick panel to work with. I like the angle though.

Parking brakes are for puss*es!

Just Kidding!

VegasScott

Picked up a pair of nice (by spec sheet) Celestion neodymium 5" speakers that Parts Express had on sale via a manufacturers buyout. They were normally $40 each, and are on sale now for $10 each. They are marketed as 5" speakers but are exactly the same size and bolt pattern as our 5.25 front mid/woofers. I think this is true of a lot of 5" component speakers.

Anyway, the speaker has good specs, so we'll see how it goes. Sensitivity is on the mid/high side for a conventional driver, so I am curious to see how it performs with the stock head unit.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=299-414

Picked up a good pair of capacitors and this Vifa soft dome.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-1028

The woofer will be drop-in, and I'll use a salvage pair of the factory tweeter surrounds to cut and mount the new Vifa, perhaps with some shims to angle them up a bit since they are mildly horn loaded.

If they don't play loud and clear enough with the head unit, I'll look at a clean 25-50W/ch front amp later.


Al

Well, this combination sounds very good IMHO, certainly worlds better than the stock speakers, especially for the high frequencies. The Vifa fabric dome is a little higher efficiency than the Celestion 5" and sometimes does sound a little too "hot", but before I build an Lpad network to drop it down, I'm going to let them break in. I used the old tweeter surrounds to mount the Vifa domes and angled them up a bit. It looks generally OEM and fits behind the stock grill.

They already seem to be smoothing out, and sound excellent on classical, jazz and quality FM broadcasts. Unfortunately all I have at the moment to test with is AM/FM/Cassette. Once I get the CD ordered and installed, I'll be able to tell more. However, on the few FM stations that still broacast quality programming, they sound very smooth and balanced, if again perhaps just a bit bright.

I haven't compared the Celestion with any other 5.25" component or coaxials like the Infinity speakers that many seem to like, so I can't comment on things like bass response, etc in comparison. The Celestion has very flat response for its frequency range though, and sounds like it. Being paper, it doesn't sound harsh.



I currently have some Kicker DS693 6x9s that I got for about $30 used in the rear. They actually sound pretty decent, but aren't the long term solution. Like some old Kicker "free air" two way 6x9 speakers with their 1 inch fabric dome I had back in the early 90s, these have very strong bass response. But unlke the those old two-ways I had back then which had great mids/highs and were very smooth, these DS693 speakers don't really have much midrange or high frequency performance.

Now I'm in the market for some rear 6x9 speakers.

I know that for those that were/are into competition sound or translate home audiophile experiences to the car prefer the front speakers to provide most of the soundstage, with the rear providing some bass fill if anything at all. However, I personally prefer a more enveloping sound in the car front and rear, and to have a lot of the punchy mid-bass (and lower if the speaker can perform) from the rear.

So I've been shopping around for some 6x9s that will fit the bill.

Now one thing I want to avoid are any shrill tweeters that can cause fatigue. I've owned and listened to a lot of home and car speakers over the years, and for me just about any metallic tweeter eventually becomes fatiguing for me, even metallized mylar or cloth suspension metallics. So it is likely, although not a forgone conclusion, that any wth metal domes are out and something with a silk or similar sounding composite would be good.

I also like strong mid and low bass, within reason (not boomy) but tight, deep and controlled.

The amplifier is a Kenwood, 100W RMSx2 at 4Ohm. So I need a pair with power handling 100W and above. I'd like to keep the cost below $150, so nothing too esoteric like Focal or Morel.

Polk has a reputation for smooth, non-harsh tweeters and 6x9s with good bass response so I've been looking at the Polk DB691, DXI690 and MM691.

The Alpine SPR-69 has a silk dome and generally good reviews.

And although it does have metallic dome mid/tweeter, the Kicker KS693 has some good reviews as well.

I would consider the Infinity Kappa 2 and 3 ways, but I've read that they are fairly bright and don't go very low with bass response relative to the others here.


So with all that being said, and noting my preferences, any experience or advice?

Although I made a lot of "smoothness" and mentioned classical and jazz, I should point out that I occasionally like to really crank it up on rock and electronic as well. So the speakers do need to "rock"

Thanks,
Al

I am in that club who prefers all the sound to be focused up front, but for what you are trying to do, it seems like you would want to stay away from 3, 4, or 5-way 6x9s with "supertweeters". This is going to dominate your front stage with harsh rear treble. Instead, look for some 2-ways with soft dome tweeters, or even some good full range drivers would be nice (I recommend matching Celestions if you can find them. 6.5" round drivers can be mounted with an adapter). You would be surprised how good a decent mid sounds in back with no tweeter.

Only other recommendation has to do with your front tweeter mounting location. The OEM tweeters are in about the worst possible area in the car for good high-frequency sound. Mounting them closer to the 5" mid (prob involves building a bridge), will improve point source (phase) and also gives your tweeters a better chance to evenly reach both sides of the car. Even better would be a kick-panel set up ahead of the doors, as shown in a picture on this page posted above.

AA wrote:

I am in that club who prefers all the sound to be focused up front, but for what you are trying to do, it seems like you would want to stay away from 3, 4, or 5-way 6x9s with "supertweeters". This is going to dominate your front stage with harsh rear treble. Instead, look for some 2-ways with soft dome tweeters, or even some good full range drivers would be nice (I recommend matching Celestions if you can find them. 6.5" round drivers can be mounted with an adapter). You would be surprised how good a decent mid sounds in back with no tweeter.

Only other recommendation has to do with your front tweeter mounting location. The OEM tweeters are in about the worst possible area in the car for good high-frequency sound. Mounting them closer to the 5" mid (prob involves building a bridge), will improve point source (phase) and also gives your tweeters a better chance to evenly reach both sides of the car. Even better would be a kick-panel set up ahead of the doors, as shown in a picture on this page posted above.

I completely agree with the two-way recommendation. As with home speakers, 2 way .... or better yet, true coaxials are best. I had great success with those now "antique" Kickers back in the early 90s. Their soft-dome, which I think was a 1 inch fabric, and heavy hitting main cone really were nice speakers. The next runners up were some Alpine two-way 6x9s a friend of mine had from the late 80s. Those Alpines couldn't handle a lot of power, but they were very punchy and the silk dome tweeter was excellent... very smooth.

And also agree about the front speaker placement. Unfortunately the Vifa is pretty deep, so I'd have to do some major surgery to get them closer, and they won't fit like you have yours. They actually sound very good though, and being semi-horn loaded and now angled, I can hear them quite clearly even on the drivers side. I may experiment with other makes/models over time though if I find these too bright. Time will tell, esp once I get a CD head unit and front amplfier installed.

I had put some Q-logic kicks in a Suburban I had years ago with Polk DB components, and that worked OK. I don't think I'm going to get that complicated with this install though. The lower door location on this car is actually pretty decent it seems.


Anyone else have any experience with the 6x9s I had listed, or have other recommendations that might fit the bill even better?

Thanks!
Al


P.S.

AA - What is the meter/gauge you have mounted on your column? It is multi-function, or? Were you lucky enough that it came in your interior color, or did you paint the housing?

One last thing re: the tweeters. I understand being a home driver they are going to be big. Idea: maybe a very small kick panel pod just for the tweeter? I know, not convenient, but I think it would sound great.

Re: the gauge, it's an Aeroforce Intercepter. More info here:

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t189p225-write-up-installing-boost-gauge#131776

AA wrote:

A few options at different price points:

http://www.amazon.com/Focal-Polyglass-5-25-Inch-Coaxial-Speaker/dp/B001Q9EL0Y/ref=sr_1_48?s=car&ie=UTF8&qid=1289878934&sr=1-48

Here's a lower cost option:

http://www.amazon.com/Cl-5ex-Audio-5-25-Coaxial-Speakers/dp/B001NXQNJU/ref=sr_1_85?s=car&ie=UTF8&qid=1289879529&sr=1-85

And for a small budget:

http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Reference-5032cf-Performance-Loudspeaker/dp/B002BZE36E/ref=dp_cp_ob_e_title_2

Great info on this thread    !!!

Had some questions on the small budget route though .........
Should the OEM tweeters be disconnected?
Do these play noticeably louder (more efficient) than the factory speakers?
Any modifications needed for placement in factory opening?

Wanting to keep stock radio, upgrade performance, and do it on a buget.
Thankyou for the help and suggestions ..............