Alignment woes

I took the easy way out and had a shop install my GR2's with new OEM springs and boots. Already had an appt made for the dealer to do an alignment afterward. As soon as I drove out of the first shop, I knew the alignment was off, pulling to the right.

The dealer spent a very large part of a day trying to get it fixed, w/o much luck. They've got everything to specs and made adjustments to try to correct the pull, but to no avail. They finally gave up and said they just can't figure out what's wrong. Not happy with this situation. I called the place that installed the struts and talked to them about it. They want a crack at solving this, so it goes back to them on Friday.

Did they put in cam bolts?

Has your car ever been hit? You might want the shop put it on their jig to make sure the frame is nice and straight. I had a Honda that was tweaked and could never get the alignment right afterwards...

ewolfe0050 wrote:

Has your car ever been hit? You might want the shop put it on their jig to make sure the frame is nice and straight. I had a Honda that was tweaked and could never get the alignment right afterwards...

I'm not surprised. Cam bolts only give about 3 degrees of adjustment at most, and some less than that.

Hey Dave - If you lay on the ground and look up at the tops of the springs, I bet the strut bearings are installed wrong. is ridged side down. Ridges are supposed to be up and the hard plastic spring seat fits just on the strut bearing. Kind of counterintuitive. Dealer has a diagram w/explosion that shows this correctly. If you bought new mounts they may have come with a drawing showing how stuff fit together.

About your alignment - teh alignment is probably correct. But what happens is that the strut bearings bind a little if they are installed upside down. And it does not take much binding to seem like the alignment is off. How to tell? One is by visual inspection. Another way - find a parking lot. turn wheels to full lock in one direction then let them straighten. Car will pull toward the turn you just made. When you turn to lock in other direction and let the wheel straighten again, it will pull toward that turn.

You may need new strut bearings if the mechanic messed the current ones up on the mis-install. They are just large plastic slip rings but they are not cheap, probably a special polymer given the amount of weight they have to bear and still work. Consider getting the Gabriel brand rings from CarQuest if you need but can't get dealer rings.

I have had independent mechanics install my strut bushings wrong *twice* in a row. I am good friends with the mechanic who owns the shop and he always makes it right - however he has had inexperienced mechanics work on my car form time to time. They are good folks but are a little short on experience.

Good luck.

ewolfe0050 wrote:

Has your car ever been hit? You might want the shop put it on their jig to make sure the frame is nice and straight. I had a Honda that was tweaked and could never get the alignment right afterwards...

Alignment was perfect before the new struts were installed. I do not believe this car has seen an accident of any significance.

Jack the R wrote:

Did they put in cam bolts?

Cam bolts? Where?

Albertj, I'll have to take a closer look and see if the bearings are in right. I think Aaron posted a pic of the parts breakdown in his Struts Install thread. You would THINK one of the 2 shops would have figured it out if they were installed wrong.

How's this look?

hey dave,
i work at sears and i've been doing struts for about the past year and i don't see how the hell they could put the bearing plates in upside down. you simply take it out and put the new one in the sameway you took it out. do you have the print out from the alignment? if so can you post it. because our cars are fully adjustable, except for the rear camber. i do alignments everyday on cars from hondas, gm, bmw, mercedes, etc. post the print outs and i can tell you what they should have done.
reese

I can do that, will take a few minutes.

here ya go

Hey Dave - Reese is right about the plates, and helps to explain the problem. They only go in one way. Thanks for the digital pic. Problem is, the bearings are in upside-down,. They are the yellow things that go on the plate. Those are aftermarket rings (factory replacements, p/n 22169986, are black both sides) and the black side mates with the insulators that set on top of the springs. .

See what I'm saying? The plates only go in one way (even a caveman...) but the bearings that go on the plates - the yellow gadgets - are little plastic slip rings. Think of a Lazy Susan bearing. Anyway, if tey are in upside down they don't turn right under load. And yours, according to your digital pic, are in upside down.

See, the yellow part is kinda like a cup. With the bearings in as they are, the cup will either rub against the strut plate or the bolts.

If a person is installing these things it looks like they should go the other way - the other side of that ring has a flat surface and you kind o think 'lookkee here, the flat part of the ring goes on the strut mounting plate and turns real nice, yeah!' But that's wrongo-bongo. And counterintuitive. The yellow slip ring turns nice UNTIL YOU LOAD IT and then it sticks under load as I described. Most likely the plastic insulator (22092693) slips around, too - you can see the concentric dirt trace on the yellow slip ring from the slipping, on the right. When it slips, it is probably binding agianst the strut plate or one of the mounting bolts, which is why the car drives like it it out of alignment.

Once again - the dealer has an explosion diagram that shouws the assembly. (my fiche shows it too but I can't print it out) and it clearly shows that the little ridges on the (yellow) bearing go up against the strut mounting plate.

Good luck explaining this to the mechanic that installed the things in the first place. And oh by the way, you may well need new bearings if the misinstallation casued them to be chewed or warped.

Dave, I just took a picture of my strut mounts, and it does look different than yours. Mine only has the yellow on the side, not the bottom. Maybe this is due to the ring being inverted, or maybe the designs are just different. Albert, comments?...

I believe you guys are exactly right. I'll be calling the shop this a.m. to go over this with the installer, and will print this out to bring along when he fixes it. I've done very little driving since the install, hopefully the bearings are still ok. Albert, they are in fact KYB parts, not OEM. I wonder if OEM replacements from the dealer will interchange with the KYB mounting plates...

Called the installer and he doesn't dispute that they could be upside down. Dealer has OEM bearings in stock, so I'm going to pick up a pair today and bring along tomorrow to the shop. $43/ea with my 25% trade disc. If we have to use them, I WILL be reimbursed. If the KYB's are still ok, the dealer will take his back. I have no doubt this shop will do right on this, they've been very good to work with previously. They've given me labor estimates before, gone over by an hour twice, but not charged the extra time.

albertj wrote:

.......... Those are aftermarket rings (factory replacements, p/n 22169986, are black both sides) and the black side mates with the insulators that set on top of the springs. ....

Albert, my parts list shows the bearing is 908554. The spring seat is 22166986, one line up in the list. I'm assuming a typo in the 22169986 you typed? I gave the parts guy # 908554 and he didn't tell me different.

I wouldn't like having my KYB mounts replaced with OEM mounts. I don't know how much of a difference there is between the two, or if KYB made any performance modifications to their mounts at all, but on general principle I wouldn't want a performance part replaced with an OEM part.

Aaron, since you asked - yes yours are in correctly.

The 'aftermarket' bearings are black on one side and yellow on the ridged side that goes on the strut mounting plate. The 'factory' bearings are black both sides, ridges on the side that goes up.

In my experience the aftermarket and OEM parts interchange without a lot of hassle, although they are different. I am on my 4th set of struts. For instance, with the KYB strut boots, the strut bumper slides over the rod. On the factory boots, they just rest over the rod. (Even a caveman...) Inexperienced mechanics find the KYB boots frustrating because it is a force-fit - but to fit them all you need to do is apply a little soapy water (or maybe tune up grease) inside the bumper. It is not a big deal, and I think the KYB bumper/boot combo is great because they positively keep incidental water and dust off the rod/canister assembly and the OEM setup does not.

Good luck with your installer.

Albertj

Oh and about the part numbers, you're right Dave. I checked @ dealer (was there on other buseinss) had a typo on the one and the other was superceded. Great catch, and I'm very sorry about hte confusion.

This is why.. this is why... this is why I'm a Trainee!

Albert

It sounds like I had it easier installing the GR2 on my ' 97 (which are not a direct replacement) than you did yours. I replaced absolutely everything, top to bottom. I've read the threads and reviewed the pix several times now and I'm still not sure what's going on. Are the late model Rivs that different between years???

Jack the R wrote:

I wouldn't like having my KYB mounts replaced with OEM mounts. I don't know how much of a difference there is between the two, or if KYB made any performance modifications to their mounts at all, but on general principle I wouldn't want a performance part replaced with an OEM part.

I agree Jack, but I can't wait for replacement KYB bearings if mine are ruined. The OEM bearings will have to do. However, I've driven as little as possible these past 2 days, driving my 68 instead, so I expect the KYB's will be ok. I picked up the OEM's just so I'd have them at the shop if needed. I would not think KYB would have made any significant change in design to the mounting plate.

BTW, thanks to all for your input, this place is a veritable fountain of RIviera knowledge.

Problem solved, KYB bearings not damaged, driving straight again.

...all's well that ends well.

Aside to ewolfe - there was a different strut setup (not sure how different) for 97 versus 95-6, and for 98 versus 97 adn earlier. There are some p/n changes on my fiche for the 99 model, too.

Aside to Jack the R - the strut mounts differ in details but not substantially. KYB, Monroe, Gabriel mounts have rubber sheets as insulator between strut mount bearing plate and frame. Current OEM mount has a rubber/cork composite insulator. I can not test the rubber bushing that the strut bolts into, so I can not say if there is a composition difference there.

Sometimes I wonder if all this fuss is worth it -- until I am driving the Riv down an open 2- or 4+ lane highway. Boy when the Riv is running right (it usually is) it is a dream to drive, and gets me where I'm going without tiring me or forcing contortions.

Now if I could just install an IPOD and run it thru the factory stereo, maybe via the CD Changer controls...

Albertj