FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads

Rears aren't too bad, and once you change them, you probably never will again.

Travis: I respect your effort in schooling, and I am confident that you will eventually learn (after turning a few more rotors into bad opera records) that there is no such thing as brake-cleaning-job-in-a-spray-can. The cleaners help but that's just not the whole job.

Thsnks also for pointing out those were Aaron's rotors/pads, my bad.

I re-read my comments to you and have one other helpful item: it's real important to clean the face of the hub and inside the rotor hat when doing a brake job. Tolerances for brakes are real tight (mils) as you know, although it does not seem like much, I find that a drill with Scotchbrite rust removal disk, and careful cleaning of the entire hub face around the bolts as well as inside the hat is needed if U just R&R the pads. With new rotors, if you paint them I am told that the thickness of the paint film inside the hat can be enough to throw things off, although that's not my experience.

I realize now you are in school for auto mechanics and I hope it's going well. No offense, but the wear on your brakes (first couple photos) looks to me like a caliper stuck for one reason or another. As for those pads you used, I'd seriously consider using one or another of the ACDelco replacement pads. They sell 2 grades of eramic pads for the Riv, the parts counter guy at the dealer should be able to tell you which is preferred for your use. I think one is long wering and the other is quick stopping.

Albertj

98riviera98 wrote:

those REAR rotors are a bear to get off........... but i have everything off and cant go any further until i have the rotors......... i will take pics of the rotors and painted calipers

rubber mallet is your friend

A couple brake jobs ago I had trouble taking off my rear rotors. So I eased one off with an 8-pound sledgehammer when the deadblow mallet made no progress... and kiled the ABS sensor on that wheel.

I wish I had had the time to replace the hub myself - because it cost *a lot* to have the dealer do it.

Funny thing, though, was when the lot attendant picked my up to take me back to the dealership she started asking me a bunch of questions about what to do about the brakes on her truck. I asked her why she's asking me, especially since my car was in the shop because I screwed up the brake job. She said no that's not what the mechanics said, they thought it was a great job and they bust ABS hubs more often than you'd think. So I asked the service manager, who told me that was true, and when they do they put a good used hub on as replacement (good = from a vehicle with less miles than the customer's) and don't necessarily tell the customer. He also told me that they pulled the other wheels to see if there were any other problems, and the guys found the drilled/slotted F body front rotors... which they don't see much.

Albertj

best way to remove a rusted rotor is a large hammer..an hit the rotor in between each wheel stud... always had good luck doin that..same with drums... an you dont take the risk of breaking things...

albertj wrote:

Now that I have seen your answers I think I know what happened.

Short answer is the calipers stuck such that the scraping brake pad was held against the rotor, and the nonscraping pad held away from the rotor, so as to wear out unevenly. I bet the wheels pulled to one side a bit when you braked, too.. Due to caliper being stuck, the amount of stopping done by the non-worn pad was minimal.

1) Caliper cleaner and brake cleaner get enough of the surface dirt off so you can work. You then really have to remove, disassemble and clean the calipers. You will need I think a 17 mm socket for the caliper bolts. They should have yellow loc-tite on them so they should not be that easy to remove.You may need a breaker bar, and you *will* need a torque wrench to reassemble.

Before you remove the calipers, you may want to loosen (not remove) the caliper pins - that way it will be easier to disassemble the calipers to lube them.

You might save hassle by getting remanufactured calipers. You *must* keep your mounting brackets, as in my experience the ones with have the wrong brackets anyway. If you get reman calipers you probly ought to disassemble them anyway (I would leave the piston pucks alone) and make sure they are lubed right.

Do you need instructions on rrbuilding calipers and what not?

Albertj

I'm going to have to rebuild at least 1 of my rear calipers. I assume you've done this before so do you have any tips? Thanks.

Joe - GM dealer sells a parts kit - I can't look up number now though.

Tips:

If you are rebuilding yourself, get a ^clean^ place to work. Parts kit should include o ring, boots for piston and caliper pins, the caliper pins themselves also.

Get price from CarQuest or NAPA for rebuilt calipers - loaded and plain. Although they are a little more work on installation, plain is OK.

There are good detailed instructions in the service manual, as well as in older Haynes manuals.

Consider replacing the soft (rubber) lines to each caliper.

The reason for disassembling remanufactured calipers - when I overhauled my brakes last year I found that 2 of the 4 reman calipers I bought were not adequately lubed. Lube is adequate when you can slide the caliper halves in and out with your hands, while off the car.

Your other questions?

Albertj

Finally decided on a pair of EBC 3SD slotted sport rotors. Item# GD7005

Link: http://www.autoanything.com/brakes/61A3068A0A0.aspx



I picked these rotors because they seemed to have decent design at a price I could live with. I've tried too many cheap rotors; maybe these will perform better. The EBC company has some good consumer reviews, especially with the bike and motorcycle crowds, being popular on the race scene. They're a pretty small company based in England that just does brake products, with a manufacturing plant just north of me in Cleveland, OH.

I plan to use these with a pair of F-Body 2-piston calipers.

I just did the rear rotors and pads. Raybestos rotors, Morse ceramic pads.

After the installation was complete, I noticed in the bottom of the Morse ceramic pad box that there were two metal shims. These are not the little metal clips that hold the pads in place, they are two metal plates that are the same shape as the pads themselves.

I read the little directions that came with it, and I still can't tell if I need to install these or not. I drove around after the install, and everything is working as it should, the brakes seem to be fine. Any ideas if I need these shims? And which side would I put it on, I'm guessing the side that comes in contact with the piston?

Thanks for any advice, guys.

I just realized what these were.

I looked at my old, used up ceramic pads, and they already had these shims on there. Except they were RIVETED on there. That way I had no choice in installing them.

This time around, they expected me to know that I had to put this all together, with some pathetic peel-off adhesive that DIDN'T WORK even after using degreaser and making sure the surface was BONE dry (it's kind of a bumpy surface, so of course it's not going to stick).

Anyway, I took a q-tip and used that as an applicator for superglue. I glued the damn things on there (once on, they won't move) and I reinstalled. Luckily I only had to take out the 12mm bolt, and re-compress the piston. None of the other bullshit.

Aaron - you can just tack this thread onto the end of the "Rear Rotors and Pads" write-up, so at least everyone knows to check for these things. Of course, I can be more of an idiot than most at times.

At least it's done.

i just did the front brake pads on the riv and i must say that they were the easiest brakes ive ever done on a car. i remember the Trans ams were kind of a bitch. not on the Riv. Great job GM love your brake design!!

The rear brakes are not so much fun though. Still easy to get at but screwing in the caliper piston is just annoying.

deekster_caddy wrote:

The rear brakes are not so much fun though. Still easy to get at but screwing in the caliper piston is just annoying.

sure as hell beats GM's monospring rear drum brakes thank god fer progress eh?

For the rear caliper pistons you should use one of these:
http://www.oreillyauto.com/EW3/ProductDetail.do?id=726318580&line=LIS&itemNumber=28600&toolsAccMoreIndex=View%20All%20Matches&didSearchFor=Brake+Tool&bid=1229457613331&cycleCount=2363&currentPage=0

It's $12.99 at O'Reilly's and plugs into your ratchet, makes the compression on the rear calipers 1000 times easier. It's 6 sided with different heads on each side.

deekster_caddy wrote:

The rear brakes are not so much fun though. Still easy to get at but screwing in the caliper piston is just annoying.

They make special tools, although I still prefer a C-clamp for pushing the piston in. Very easy job. Drums.. ehhh they SUCK.

Can't use the C-clamp on the rears though.
That small tool shown above does the job of screwing the pistons back in the bore for short money.
That's if the pistons aren't seized.

C-clamp works on the fronts but does not work on the rears.

Most auto parts stores sell the cube gadget for calipers, some for (far) less than $12.99 - so if the price bugs you shop around. If you are working on the rears you *need* that rascal, it is not optional. For instance they are $9.99 at PartsAmerica. If you do not use one, in my experience you can do the rears exactly once - you mess up the calipers in the process.

there are also more expensive ($50 - $75) kits that combine a caliper piston spreader with a disk having pins to screw the caliper piston in. Like NAPA SER4150.

Albertj

Thanks for the tool tip Capt.

Not the best tool for the job but you can also use a pair of needle nose pliers. Hold them just right and you can screw the piston in.
But I do agree, the tool above is the correct and best answer!

I found the 9.99 tool Albert was talking about Power Built tools 648410 I am going over to see if Advance stocks it. I found a 16.95 spanner tool on either Auto Zone or Advance also. Oreillys and Advance same price on Lisle tool Capt. Shiner showed above 28600. This is a great place I have had the pads for the rear sitting on my desk because of the weather and now a tool I was needing appears without research. Thanks

First a little bcakground.

EBC is a private British company, owned by Andy Freeman.

Web site is http://www.ebcbrakes.com/

They are dominant in motorcycle brakes, have been for some time, however, they've expanded thier line of brakes to cover most cars, buses, trucks, commercial vehicles and many locomotives - this was done via their research and development activity. They manufacture in England (Northampton) and the US (Cleveland).

I bought a set of EBC pads because they seemed to have a better idea for replacement pads. They coat their pads with an abrasive to facilitate brake break-in. I decided to get EBC RedStuff Ceramic pads because the Riv is over 200 BHP, and EBC claims the RedStuff (ceramic) formulation is intended for cars in that horsepower range. They have GreenStuff (Kevlar) for less powerful cars and YellowStuff (some hybrid they say) for stock car racing and rallye use.

Anyway, I noticed a few things.

One, there are minor differences in dimension of the EBC pad backing plates and the CarQuest (Raybestos) pads I replaced - the Raybestos fit the calipers OK but the little tabs would bind in the calipter glides. The EBC pads fit much better - snug but not stuck. By the way - with the Raybestos pads a file is all you need to fix the problem. Also, the pad contact area is substantially larger than for instance the Duralast Gold ceramic/semimetallic brakes, on the fronts.

Two, the EBC pads come with specific instructions for break-in. Which I followed. Boy, do they stink and smoke on initial break-in. Not so much that it is a problem but if you're installling these suckers be sure to bed them in as they say. Judging by the smell, the bedding in gives them a secondary cure. The smell reminded me of a railroad brake factory I remember from when I lived in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. You will (temporarily) stink up your car and garage. The odor is not so much objectionable as it is old-school industrial.

Three, (actually sort of 2-B) they don't stop so good while you are bedding them in. And the smoke attracts some attention. As it is, I live in a rural area so it was no big deal to go out onto a paved forest road and run up to 40-50 miles per hour and do the progressively hard stops for bedding-in. But if you live in a city this could get tricky. Try not to get stopped for suspicion of DUI... However, you'll know when the bedding in is done because all fo a sudden they will start to stop the car *real* well. I reckon it'll take 10 minutes or so to get through the bedding-in cycle.

Four - they don't come with any hardware, so you might want to stop by CarQuest or AutoZone or wherever to get a couple bags of those clickeety little parts. I got H5814 for the rears and Raybestos H5708A for the fronts.


If you have experience with EBC brakes please chine in. I will comment again after driving on them for a while. I was very happy with the Raybestos brakes I got from CarQuest (CarQuest Blue). We will see how these go. Er... how they stop... EBC also makes a line of rotors - a copper-iron alloy that should work pretty well - better at getting rid of heat than the China iron ones, anyway.

Albertj

I replaced all of my brakes with EBC's over a year ago. Got their Rotors and pads for front and rear. Very noticeable difference in stopping power.

Recently I did the front caliper LS-1 Upgrade and bought EBC Red Stuff pads for those and changed brake hoses to stainless braided, Wow what a difference. Stops on a dime and much better brake pedal feel.

I've liked the EBC stuff from the minute I bedded them in, by the way I opted for the dimpled and slotted rotors from them and haven't had any issues with warpage or pulsation or brake fade under hard use.

Thanks for chiming in RIck.

I got the fronts done today, pulled the drivers side rear wheel and the brakes looked so good I decided to leave 'em alone until summer. Plus, it was cold enough that my breathing was fogging up the work area somewhat. If it was a safety matter I'd do it anyway but it's not and I didn't. At this wear rate I won't really have to mess with them until next year at the ealiest - the Raybestos brakes have been working really well and in hindsight were a really good value. Although I'll never forget the look on the counterperson's face at Advance when he lugged those heavy Bendix rotors out. Carquest (where I got the pads) did not have the good rotors only the cheapie ones. As for Advance, until that day I suppose Counter Billy (not his real name) had only really handled the cheap stuff.

Just the same - I have the EBC pads for the rears and will install them soon enough.

I did the fronts because Doug (mechanic at the dealer) said the drivers side inboard pad was down to 2 mm. Wear limit is around 1 mm - that's when the pesky metal tang hits the rotor to make noise. He was right. I am certain I saved myself headache by cleaning the calipers and switching the pads.

Reason the inboard pad was so low - probably accumulated road spash limited the ability of the caliper to slide. Had a heck of a time getting the lower caliper pin out, seems that the problem was corrosion in the threads. If they designed the boots to fit in the caliper brackets instead of rest on them, that would not happen. And I wish there was a bigger splash shield. I know they modified it in production becuase rocks and stuff were getting stuck in it... this problem's not as bad but depending on where the wear tang is you'll never know until it is too late.

Next time I do a teardown/cleaning/rebuild and I see fronts like that I will probably use someblack form-a-gasket to stick the boots onto the brackets in order to make sure the moisture stays out.

That said, it (the smut on the calipers) was a nuisance not a disaster. I did tear both fronts down and clean them enough to keep them sliding right. The low VOC cleaner did not really want to come out of the can. Glad I painted and built the calipers when I overhauled brakes in July of '07. Made this maintenance *much* easier. However, I don't know how to really fix the problem without putting a bigger shield on behind the hub. Which supposedly would create a worse problem.

Oh, well.

The ride home from bedding-in was real nice - I'm sure I got the wheels on straight, there were no vibrations or anything. One of the dealer mechanics told me to mount the wheels so the trademark reads right, put the nuts on finger tight in that position then lower the wheel to contact the ground so it won't move when you torque the lugs. Then torque the lugs. Then lower it the rest of the way.

Albertj

Now that they've been on a couple days - they chirp a little when cold, no big deal, and when cold the pedal pulsates a little, I assume tlhere is some sort of smarm on the rotor faces. After a couple stops they don't chirp and they don't pulsate, AND most important they stop like you landed on the deck of an aircraft carrirer and hooked the cable - holy smoke!

Albertj

how is the dusting on them?
and what finish wheels do you have on the riv?
thanks for the comments and update, you have me rethinking the pads i will be using for the f-body upgrade.