FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads

did you get tired of the yellow calipers?

Also, how much did this set run you? i'm interested to see if you get any noise and how much dust you are getting. I always have the windows down and cant stand any brake squeal.

Tired of cleaning them! In spring when I put the Enkeis on, I'll wash up the calipers with soap and water and they'll look good as new. It's just hard to keep them clean in winter around here.

I'm guessing the DTC pads will dust more than the HPS. My HP+ pads dusted a lot, but it came off easily with a soapy sponge. I'm hoping these will be similar. Will keep you posted about the noise.

DTC-30s were $134 shipped. See above post for order links. Looking again, you can get EBC bluestuff for $150. I don't know where I got $200 from.

Day two with the DTC-30 pads - I noticed the smallest high pitched squeak rolling around a turn today. I don't know if it came from the front - still running the HP Plus on the rear, so they could be acting up. The HP+ used to be noisier in back, but I found rotating them made less noise, and reversed the tapered wear issue. Still, they become audible from time to time.

Aside from that, these pads really do stop the car exactly the way I think they should. Very good cold response - no delay like the HPS, and not so aggressive initial bite like the HP Plus. You have to push the pedal a little harder at first, but then the friction ramps up quick. Less pedal effort overall, but a little more in the beginning. Hope that makes sense.

I need to get used to the steep ramp these pads have. On dry, it's usable. On wet, need to be careful. Also the road is very cold now. In spring/summer the sticker pavement should let the tire grip a bit more.

Aaron, How many miles are you getting on a set of pads?

When the set you sent me were used up i ordered more of the HPS pads and powerslots. At the time i had 156000 miles on the car. Just noticed my driver front brakes are squealing and i'm pretty certain its the wear tabs. I currently have just under 171000 on the car now.

so my point is i'm only getting 15000 miles and 1yr 3mo on a set of brand new HPS pads
Rotors look pretty good but will probably need changing in a year or less.

If i remember correctly you drive a lot more highway than i do, but have similar "spirited" city driving style as me. Did the HP+ pads last longer than the HPS?

Just ordered a set of the bluestuff race pads made by EBC.
$159.46 shipped was a little more than i wanted to pay for just front pads, but i really like what i am reading on these.
DP51239 is the part # for the f-body brake setup.
I ordered them from perfectbrakes.com

HP+ pad life is pretty good, at the expense of dust, noise, and shortened rotor life (thickness). The plus side is you won't get the dreaded brake judder. I installed them in May of '09, so that means I got about 34k miles out of them over 20 months of use. The HPS pads I sent you had about 25k miles over about 13 months. I'd guess both formulas would have lasted nearly the same amount in the end.

So for the extra friction in the case of HP+ you get more noise, dust, rotor wear, and higher pad cost. The pads don't seem to wear any faster. The HPS had good pad and rotor life, low noise, less dust, lower price, at the expense of less cold bite, and overall not as much stopping torque. They also started to judder in my instance.

The new DTC-30s are claimed to be gentler on rotors, and seem quieter - at a higher cost. I would expect they will be dusty and not as durable. More like a high torque version of HPS with some of the cold bite like the HP+.

You're right about the driving styles affecting longevity. I am hard on the brakes sometimes, but drive more miles in between, so our results are a bit different. I think most of what we are experiencing with increased pad/rotor wear is normal for the higher friction and torque these pads provide.

EDIT: Nice! I always wanted to try those. Based on specs, your car should stop from higher speeds like a dream. Congrats on the purchase. I think they will be noisy, though. If you decide they aren't working for you, I'd consider trading you for my DTC-30s. So far they're staying very quiet.

Installed my new EBC Bluestuff NDX pads this afternoon.


My first impression is that they are more grabby and responsive than the HPS pads. Much better cold friction, so far with no noise. I havent really gotten on them yet since the bed-in procedure says to drive easy on them for a few miles then do the normal 70-50 stops to get them hot.
They have more peddle feel under mild-moderate peddle pressure. The car really shaves off speed from 50/60mph. I can only imagine how they will react at 100mph with hard peddle pressure.

Defiantly an improvement over the stopping power and feel compared to the HPS pads. Time will tell if they have lots of dust or start making any noise.
I will try to get a video of them in action too.

Wow! big bucks! You guys are fanatical stoppers! I think paying $30 for the Auto zone cheap stuff is alot...

Wow, those are pretty - I'm jealous. I'm happy with the new Hawks, but I'm sure yours are even better. Can't wait for your impression at higher speed. Be careful with testing!

Got them bed-in. These things stop in a hurry. Very stable and smooth decel.
With the HPS pads they would start out hard and get progressively harder as i lost speed and they heated up.
With the bluestuff they start out extreme and stay extreme until i let off the brakes.
I had smoke on the last stop and i honestly didnt know if it was the break in stuff burning off or if my tires had locked up. ABS didnt feel engaged but with the amount of friction i wouldnt be surprised if it was too much for ABS.
Also they are still shooting spark fragments on my wheels. maybe its form the rotor, but these pads are not supposed to have hot sparks like the hawk pads do.
More feedback to come as they wear in.

Think the smoke is normal as you repeat high speed decels, re-bedding the pads. Bedding happens on a frequent basis, but they ask you do it after installation to clean off any foreign deposits left from previous pads. It preps the rotor for the new pads, but once cooled, you can re-bed them, adding another transfer layer on top. The layers are very thin, so it is hardly measurable, but you can see it as a graphite-looking haze on the disc. As you repeat high speed stops, the layer is both wearing at the layer, and re-bedding a new one. I think this is how a high-friction pad can stop and also remain gentle on your rotors.

Sparks are cool, as long as the dust comes off your wheels and paint! I'm guessing almost all pads at this level have some type of ferrite material in the mix, so you're going to have that.

Yeah, the smoke is normal. Every set of pads/rotors I do here at the shop end up smoking when I'm done with the test drive. You need to get the new pads that hot to properly mate them to the rotor. Just can't overdue it.....

If the EBC bluestuff pads do what they claim, they're supposed to be safe operating into the 1300ºF range. To put into perspective, OEM replacements and "good" pads from local parts stores will go into fading above ~ 700ºF. I would be more concerned about frying your caliper piston seals and boiling fluid than I would be about maxing out the bluestuff pads - this assumes you can actually get them that hot, the pads would not be the weak link in the system.

At this point i worry more about something else coming loose or breaking, not pad fade.
I would really like to find a way to keep the passenger seat locked so it isnt constantly flying forward every time i tap the brakes. Also i may need to re-tighten my seat rails.

I was able to bring the HPS pads up to fade point. Nice pads for normal street use with the occasional drag run. i wont be getting them again though.

Bluestuff's generate a little bit more dust than the HPS pads but it wipes off quick and easy with a dry micro. Nothing a quick cleaning every other day cant solve. (worth it for this kind of braking ability)

If you value braking performance, dust is a non-issue, imo. Like you say, it comes off easily. Even when I let it go a week or two, it easily came off my painted wheels. I have to admit, brake dust looks different than 'dirt' to a trained eye, and it doesn't look bad on all wheels. But track pads get a bad rep because some (like Hawk blue) have a corrosive dust that embeds in surfaces, then rusts when it gets wet. Also cold bite hasn't been the best. Newer pad technologies have moved past these obstacles.

The real disadvantage to pads like these is noise and lifespan vs. cost. If you want mad stopping skills, you must give up something. How's noise level so far?

Have not heard a peep from them. I have been driving 100% windows down the past day with them too. (not even a squeak in the parking garage when cold)

I dont remember who it was but someone on clubgp had this for a sig:

Cheap, Reliable, Fast. You can only pick 2.

That seems to go for a lot more than just cars. I can live with the cost if these last awhile. Time will tell, but for now i cant imagine a better brake pad.

Quote :

Cheap, Reliable, Fast. You can only pick 2.

I remember that. It's a variation on "project triangle", which used to be more of a business management rule before it was applied to cars. You're right, it can apply to almost anything, just change the words. In my field, we say "Feasibility, Viability, Desirability", when one of these is strong, the other two become less realistic.

For brake pads specifically, TireRack uses a system of 3 rating factors: Stopping Power, Low Noise, and Low Dust. If you look at their brake pad ratings, TWO of these factors is usually rated high, while ONE is low, or all 3 are medium. We can also take price and rotor wear into account, but these are only considerations on more exotic pads (like yours).

UPDATE: after a little more than a month (~2000 miles) with the DTC-30 pads, I've noticed a few things. First: these are very dirty, dusting pads. Wheels were coated black in 2 weeks. Next: they do eventually squeak some after a few miles. This can be remedied by rebedding the pads with a few high-speed stops (creating more dust!). Last thing: these pads are super abrasive, wearing heavily on the slotted discs. They are not "gentle" on rotors like some of the online vendors claim. In one month, these pads have turned the rotors down, completely removing the slots from rotors I purchased only 7 months ago!

The verdict: they stop very, very well, and they are streetable, but at a price. I've decided that price is too high for daily driving, so will be moving back to HP Plus next time. HP+ were a good compromise between stopping performance, wear, dust and noise. If there's anything left of the DTC-30s, I'll keep them in a box for a future track day.

you should try the EBC blue stuff pads before going back to the HP+ pads.
I have just over 1000 miles on them now.
Zero noise, i'd guess about as much dust as the DTC-30's because i can wash the car, drive around the block and have about a teaspoon full of dust from all the wheels combined.
I want to pull the pads and see just how worn down they are but i dont have time right now. Rotors still look good and have all the slots.

Thanks, I may go with the EBCs next. Problem is, I really do like these DTC pads. I just can't afford the maintenance and care that comes with running them.

Check the rotor discs - does it ramp up near the outside edge (indicating rotor wear)?

does not appear to be wearing any more than the HPS pads.


Rotor have 15k total miles on them btw.

Found some random brake pad info while researching pad taper. Most of it seems to substantiate our previous findings:

"Brake Pad Terms" from Afco Racing:

COEFFICIENT OF FRICTION
The scientific definition for coefficient of friction is the ratio of force required to move or stop one surface, with a given perpendicular force applied to it, as it drags across another surface. The layman can think of coefficient as the slippage of the pad as it clamps down on the rotor. The coefficient measurement ranges from zero to infinity, but most racing pad's range from .15 to .65. The mathematical formula for coefficient of friction is:

Mue = F/W

Where:
Mue = coefficient of friction
F = force required to move one surface over the other
W = perpendicular force

TRANSFER LAYER
This is what determines the stability and effectiveness of the pad's coefficient of friction. It is the simultaneous transfer of pad material between the rotor and the pad. Pad material is constantly moving between these two surfaces during brake engagement. Every pad leaves a transfer layer. This is one reason why a new pad will not work optimally against a rotor that had previously run a different type of pad.

TEMPERATURE CONTINUUM
This is a brake pads' comfort zone and signifies the range in which the pads are more effective. Some pads are designed to perform optimally at cooler temperatures while others do not start performing well until they are hot. The expanse of the temperature continuum is dependent upon the materials (powder, fibers, and resins) used to manufacture the pads. The thermal stability of these materials determines their combined effectiveness. Different materials have different properties at different temperatures. Very few brake pads are designed to retain performance while transitioning along the temperature continuum. The key to a great brake pad is to have one material transition in while another material is fading away; all without the driver feeling any difference in the brake pedal.

THERMAL STRESS / SHOCK
This happens when the rotor is heated up and cools down rapidly causing an uneven heat distribution throughout the rotor. The result is the expansion of the rotor material in one area, while not expanding in another area. Heat checks in the rotor are a symptom of thermal stress. Be careful not to confuse small cracks in the transfer layer laid on the rotor by the pads as thermal shock. Bedding of a new rotor will help reduce the possibility of thermal stress/shock.

RESINS
Resins are organic materials used to bind and reinforce the different components of a brake pad. The resins act like a thermoset plastic, which holds the components together like glue. This glue forms the matrix of the brake pad. When heated, resins tend to shrink and crack, and at very high temperatures they may turn to carbon. Carbonized resins cause weakening of the matrix and accelerated pad wear.

BRAKE FADE
There are three types of brake fade. The first is the conventional burning off of resins as the pads are being broken (bedded) in. This is known as green fade and occurs when gases from burnt resins are trapped between the pads and rotors. When this happens the pedal feels firm but the car will not stop. The second type of fade is when the pads are forced to work outside their temperature continuum. This is the point at which the resins burn off rapidly, and the pad has accelerated wear. The third type of fade is glazing. This is when the resins, which soften during active braking, then cool and solidify on the face of the pads. This glazed surface is hard and slick, and will not give the same coefficient of friction as an unglazed or new pad.

PAD TAPER
This is a rather disputed point among drivers, mechanics and manufactures of calipers and brake pads. The following are a few theories as to why pads taper.
One type of pad taper is leading edge to trailing edge taper. One theory as to why this occurs is that the leading edge (front of pad) is hotter than the trailing edge (rear of pad) and thus the front part will wear faster. Another theory for leading to trailing edge taper is as the pad material smears against the rotor it flows from the front to the rear of the pad and accumulates there, giving the pad a tapered face. A third theory is that pads themselves are not made to the proper density, and thus have uneven wear.
The second type of pad taper occurs in the form of top to bottom taper. In this case the top radius of the pad wears at a faster rate than the bottom radius of the pad. The caliper flexing under hard braking conditions may cause this. This problem is very common in racing where original equipment calipers are used. In many cases the original equipment calipers were not designed to withstand the high heat and high line pressure of a racing environment. Under these strenuous conditions the original equipment caliper bridge bends and flexes.

BEDDING YOUR ROTORS AND PADS
First, slowly build heat into the pads by making slow to medium speed stops. Then make a series of very hard high-speed stops. Some fade may be experienced when doing the high-speed stops. The brakes should not be dragged during this procedure. Let the brakes cool down for twenty minutes or more and they are then ready to race. Never use new pads to bed new rotors. It is best to bed new pads on old rotors that had run the same type of pads. It is best to bed new rotors with old pads that are the type that will be used in the race. A bedded rotor should have a uniform, polished appearance with no cracks or grooves.

Source: http://www.afcoracing.com/tech_pages/pad_term.shtml

AA wrote:

The second type of pad taper occurs in the form of top to bottom taper. In this case the top radius of the pad wears at a faster rate than the bottom radius of the pad. The caliper flexing under hard braking conditions may cause this. This problem is very common in racing where original equipment calipers are used. In many cases the original equipment calipers were not designed to withstand the high heat and high line pressure of a racing environment. Under these strenuous conditions the original equipment caliper bridge bends and flexes.

One thing i dont like about the f-body design is the bridge isnt strong enough. When bleeding the calipers i can visually watch it bend and distort when hard pressure is applied. If these were 4 pot calipers with some center bridge support i dont think we would have the same problem. guess nothing is perfect

Maybe so, but I haven't seen the kind of top-to-bottom taper they're describing as a result of the flex in the F-Body pads. Mine have worn amazingly even down to the last mm of compound. The rears (OEM) on the other hand showed significant tapering between the leading/trailing edges, as I posted here:

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t2081p225-faq-brake-rotors-and-pads

My solution has been to rotate the pads every 15k miles or so keep the wear in check.

I think it's that time again to replace my front rotors.
I currently have EBC with about 35K miles on them and am getting a judder under light to moderate brake application that I cannot make go away by scrubbing the brakes anymore.
The scrubbing action has worked up until the past couple of months.
I do not get any judder when I do a very heavy brake application.
Have not had the opportunity to take things apart yet and do a visual as well as measuring the thickness of the rotors.
Have tried braking with just the E Brake to test and see if it was in the rear brakes, but they stop OK with no vibration.

Anyway, was wondering what product you guys are using lately. I've been away from the board and have not kept up with the latest and greatest evaluations of Rotors. Have done a search and a bunch of reading but can't find what I'm looking for, so I thought I'd just ask.
What manufacturer do you recommend.?
Where to buy from.?
How much are they selling for now adays. (Approx)

I remember sometime back AA mentioning he got some rotors with a lifetime warranty but can't find the info on that. Wondering how those worked out.
Also, I do have the F-Body calipers.

Thanks for any input you may have to offer.

Rick