FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads

Thanks for the update. Looks like your pads are wearing fine.

The corrosive dust comes from the Hawk Blue pads, but I've never heard anything bad about the EBC Blue. Entirely different composition, so no worries. I think I will try the EBC blue pads for my next set, or when I decide to take the Riv on track.

How do your rotors look? Still have those heat cracks like you used to have?

The large heat cracks that i had before went away when i got slotted rotors and rid of the 16" wheels. I was just not getting enough air flow and cooling to the brakes.

With the slotted rotors i have now i can see small lines, but i think those are just on the surface. I have no brake jutter or heat spots.
They are wearing very well. still have plenty of time before the slots are gone and i have used these on an entire set of HPS pads and the blue stuff pads.

I think next i want to upgrade to either a stiffer caliper or 13" rotors.

Testing the new Gecko camera mount, I wanted to capture a 3rd-person view of the brakes doing their thing. This is mostly out of pure curiosity, but also to know if any serious problems exist during repeated high speed breaking events. By this I mean braking on public roads from speeds of 70-90 mph down to speeds of 30-50 mph. I generally don't drive much faster, so this is a pretty good test.

I wanted to see how (if) heat builds from one event to the next, and if the rotors were glowing red hot (if discs are hot enough to glow, it's an indicator the brakes aren't being cooled well enough, or the wrong pad/rotor combo is being used. It also could mean the calipers and brake fluid are getting too hot). The following video records 10 decelerations spaced 10-15 secs apart, starting with light braking and working up to higher speeds. Most were as firmly as I can brake without tripping ABS. Events 3-7 and 10 were about as hard as I care to brake on public roads. It's hard to tell in the video, but these decelerations were at a rate of about -20 mph in 2 secs:



Braking events:

1 - warm up from ~35mph
2 - from ~60 mph
3 - from ~70 mph
4 - from ~75 mph
5 - from ~80 mph
6 - from ~80 mph
7 - from ~80 mph
8 - from ~75 mph
9 - from ~55 mph
10 - from ~90 mph

After the test, there was a strong smell of pad compound, but no brake fade up to that point. I feel about 1-2 more stops would be about the limit for this set-up. Still, ten strong stops is more than adequate for a street set-up on a heavy car like the Riv. Also there are no lasting problems as a result of the test, other than the expected pad/rotor wear. No judder, noise, etc.

Overall, I like the F-body mod w/HP Plus pads for the street. Knowing what my brakes are doing helps to build confidence in the set-up. Note the slight glow at the outer edge during harder stops near the end - this is where the outside pad edge is creating focused heat - to be expected, imo - and I'm not that worried about it. A lesser (OEM) pad might be on fire at this point. The verdict: as long as I can get 10 really solid stops with no adverse effects, I'm happy!

Very interesting. Makes me curious how mine look under those conditions.

Matthew, are you still happy with your Blue EBC pads? I'm headed to the track next week, thinking about ordering a pair.

AA wrote:

Matthew, are you still happy with your Blue EBC pads? I'm headed to the track next week, thinking about ordering a pair.

Yes. i still love them and plan on getting them again when these are worn out. Pricy still, but well worth it for the consistency and feel of them compared to the hawks i had before.

Sweet. I just ordered a set from here:

http://www.autoaccessoriesgarage.com/Brakes/EBC-Blue-Stuff-Brake-Pads/_Item/_388200023

$146.51 total, shipped.

PS - EBC has just released a new ORANGE Stuff pad, which is an all-out track pad, high friction, heavy dusting, and not recommended for street use, as it is made to slow your vehicle, not to actually stop it. In a comparison chart they show the Orange Stuff is comparible to the Hawk DTC-30 pad that I used earlier this year. No plans to use either the DTC or Orange pads anytime soon.

EDIT: received my Blue Stuff pads. Overall, I'm impressed with the packaging and finish quality. Can't wait to put them on and test!

New EBC BlueStuff pads went on today. After bedding them in (which was difficult to do in the rain), I did a few high-speed stopping tests. At first, I was a little surprised at the cold performance of these pads. They don't have that strong initial bite like the HP+ or DTC-30 compounds do. A little more force is required, but the friction comes on if you push the pedal. After a while I got used to the slightly harder effort and realized it gave a more precise pedal feel. Multiple decels from high speeds went very smoothly - the added confidence of the BlueStuff compound tends to encourage higher speeds than usual. They should work perfectly for Monday's track runs, and I will probably keep them on for a few weeks to evaluate daily driving. Right now it's looking like they'll remain on the car full time. Thanks to Matthew for the recommendation.

Glad you like them.
I will be ordering my 2nd set in the next month or so.
The pads are holding up well but my rotors are getting thin (already been through a set of HPS pads with them)

If you want to try out my HP+ for comparison, I will mail them to you at no charge if you return them.

AA wrote:

If you want to try out my HP+ for comparison, I will mail them to you at no charge if you return them.

I appreciate the offer, but i think i have found a pad compound that works for me.

I would like to know what you think of the dusting of the Blue stuff vs the HP+.
Also like to hear what you think of them after a week or so of daily use.

When i first installed the f-bodys and a set of high performance pads i though i would never need more stopping power.
But to be honest lately ive been considering upgrading the calipers to something with less flex, and maybe going with a 2 piece rotor.

Watching the f-bodys move and flex at the bridge while bleeding the fronts, and seeing pad deposits on only the center line of the rotor after a hard stop, i wonder how much more deceleration i can achieve with a stronger caliper.

Matthew, I just returned from driving the Riv on a 2-mile high speed road course. I put more than 100 miles of hot laps on the Blue Stuff pads, braking from speeds of up to 110 mph. What I found was the brakes held up pretty well, to a point. While it was raining, I drove at lower speeds, and braking was minimal. It's actually nice having less initial bite in the rain, because the wheels don't lock up as easily. Much more effective for threshold braking.

After the sun came out, I started to push the car hotter into the turns, testing the damp track. After 8-10 continuous laps, the pads started to stink a bit, and made a squealing noise, accompanied by mild brake judder. I assume this was the compound reaching its peak operating temperature. Although a bit discomforting, the pads never went into fading, so I was able to stop the car (although it felt like the threshold approaching fast). After cool down, all symptoms subsided, and the brakes felt fine. It's possible some other part of the braking system was reaching its limit, such as the rotors or caliper. In the future I want to verify whether this happens with an all-out track compound such as DTC-30, ruling out the pads if that be the case. One thing I do believe is the Blue Stuff compound is more resilient to fade than HP+, which have gone into fading at high temps in the past, after multiple high-speed stops on the street. Yesterday's track experience confirmed the HP+ would have in fact been the weak link, but it also showed the Blue Stuff were also limiting me, although to a lesser degree.

It's worth mentioning - as I grew more comfortable running hot laps on dry track, I found less of a need to brake hard entering turns, as the tires were finding grip to hold corners with more speed. The result was the brakes were able to cool down between braking events with no problems. Lap times also improved. So now I'm thinking a lot of it was me using too much brake. But still, it was 55ºF yesterday. In hotter weather I could see this getting ugly after running a dozen or more laps in a row, even with the conservative braking effort.

The Riv is quite a heavy car, and accelerates to high speeds so quickly. It really needs something extra for extreme track use. To clarify, I think the F-Body calipers with Blue Stuff pads are excellent for daily driving duties, even in extreme situations. I think you could stop the car all day long at the drag strip with no issues, but for continuous laps at the road course, some part of the braking system formula (or the driver's style) needs to change. I'm not convinced a big brake kit is the only answer, but it is certainly an option. Air cooling ducts might solve the issue. Or, a dedicated track pad might be the key, but then a swap-out is needed for track days. A larger disc (13") and/or pad surface would also help a great deal with managing the heat.

A similar story here, from the Nissan GT-R boards. This is relevant, as the GT-R and Riviera are equal in weight:

http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?/topic/57773-ebc-blue-stuff-track-pads-review-bad/

UPDATE: I've been running the EBC blue stuff pads for two weeks on the street. Good experiences so far. Below is my comparison with the Hawk HP Plus, which I think are also great for the street. These graphs are for relative comparison only; they do not reflect any measured data, only my personal experience.

The first graph reports my perceived pedal pressure to achieve a certain level of friction, for 3 pads (OEM ceramic [lower price], Hawk HP+ [higher price], EBC BlueStuff [highest price]). For this graph, brake temperatures are not taken into consideration. "0" friction & "0" pressure would be foot off the pedal, no braking. "1" foot pressure is very light pedal, "5" is medium, and 10" is as hard as most people can press the pedal. For friction, "0" would be no deceleration, "5" is average (OEM pads at medium pedal), and "10" is 100% braking friction, wheel lock-up, or ABS engage. Looking at the curves shows that the HP+ ramps up quickly, having the most initial bite, while the EBC Blue and OEM pads are more linear in their modulation. Even so, the EBC provides a consistently higher level of friction across the entire range compared to OEM, and ultimately provides just as much friction as HP+ with higher foot pressures.

The 2nd graph shows my estimation for how each pad performs as brake temperatures increase. "0" represents freezing winter temps (parked). "5" average (warm) brake temp under normal driving. "10" is the limit where we can assume the brake fluid might boil, caliper seals are burned, etc. - for example, after repeated high-speed stops. Friction values are rated the same as mentioned above, with 5 being what I'd expect the average OEM brake set-up to feel like under normal deceleration. Note the HP+ pad has very good bite, even when cold, whereas the EBC Blue is a little soft and needs some warm-up. Not much, but some. OEM bites about the same at any temperature, even when cold. During average warm braking, the HP+ bites hardest, then EBC, then OEM. When things get very hot, like on a track stopping from 100+ mph every minute or two, the OEM fade away earliest, offering no stopping ability. HP+ will fade, but at a much higher temperature. I could not get the EBC BlueStuff to fade too badly, but I was seeing signs of the limit fast approaching. In warmer ambient temperatures, I am sure they would reach their max. Overall, the EBC offered not much higher levels of friction than HP+, but they developed it at extended temperature range. However, at lower to normal street braking temperatures, the EBC delivered normal to above-average bite compared to OEM.



Overall, I think the EBC BlueStuff is the better all-around performance street pad, with near OEM-type pedal modulation, but with much higher levels of friction on tap, even at extremely high operation temperatures. The downside is, in cold temps the EBC doesn't work nearly as well. The Hawk HP+ pads give you that very hard initial bite, which technically makes the brakes more responsive to input, but you have to get used to the non-linear curve, or you might brake too hard by mistake! The HP+ work awesomely in very cold temperatures, giving near instant bite, like you would expect with OEM pads. Very hard, repetitive braking pushes the HP+ to fade, but it takes a lot of continuous abuse to make this happen; most drivers will never see this even in spirited driving, even autocross.

My experience with dust and noise: OEM ceramic are near 100% dust free, and very quiet. If that's your bag, enjoy your clean wheels, and know the squeals you hear with windows down are coming from somewhere else. Being fairly low dusting, and some mild squeal at times, the EBC BlueStuff are a very attractive alternative. Neither trait has been particularly bothersome in my experience. The HP+ are a bit noisier, however I learned to drive and brake in such a way that they never made much noise at all - they are very predictable. The HP+ will dust a little more, but it cleans off easily, and won't harm your wheels (neither will the EBC's in my experience so far). One thing the HP+ will do is slowly wear down your iron rotors over 30k miles or so. However the pads themselves last a very long time. If you have trouble with judder, or warping rotors, the HP+ will put a stop to that!

I have yet to test the EBC long term for rotor or pad wear, but they are supposed to be gentle on discs, and according to more than one source, incredibly durable pads, even on the race track. I'm going to run these for as long as I can, then put the HP+ back on for a follow-up comparison. What I'm interested in seeing is whether the EBC BlueStuff will run judder-free over many thousands of miles. If so, I can't see any reason not to buy them again in the future.

Great review.
I am getting ready to order my 2nd set of EBC blue stuff pads and a new set of rear pads as well.

One thing that may help with the "initial bite" , or lack there of with the EBC blue stuff pads, is a high cold friction rear pad.
I have been running the HPS pads on the rear and i need something to replace them. My thought is if i get something with a high initial level of friction the car will regain some of the initial stopping force but still remain controllable under heavy braking as the rear pads fade and the fronts (EBC) gain power.
From your review i would like to get the HP+ pads for the rear but im afraid they would dust too much for my taste. (im cursing every time i have to wipe down my front rims with the blue stuff pads lol)

I currently run the HP Plus pads on the rear wheels. The above tests were performed with this set-up.

Knowing the Riviera is a front heavy car, I question how much the rears add to stopping at moderate city speeds. The OEM rear brakes are smallish, and appropriately proportioned, probably 80/20 favoring the fronts. That's so Riviera drivers don't lose control if they stab the brakes in a hard turn, or even in a straight-on panic stop. By result, the rears are contributing very little compared to the fronts, so you probably won't notice much increased bite from stepping up the friction in rear. Hit the parking brake at 25-40 mph and you'll see how little braking torque there is - better pads will improve that, but not very much. Even without much torque though, the rears will scrub off higher speeds by taking advantage of heat transfer. At 85-90 mph they do a bit more work through RPM, and so therein lies the reasoning for higher friction rear pads, imo. In converting motion into heat at high speed, the higher the heat the pads can tolerate, the better the rears will be at their job. The rears are so small, you might think they could easily be overheated, but because their proportion is also small, it's actually difficult to get the rear pads hot enough to exceed their thermal limits in practice - if you use the right pads. I don't know of anything available for the rears that offers higher temperature operation, or bite for that matter.

Only thing you must remember is to do your braking before a hard turn, not during the turn, avoiding loss of control in a panic situation. With the car' suspension loaded down in the front, in addition to side loading from the turn, the rear inside tire wants to lift off the ground. It won't, but the wheel will lock up much easier with the HP+ pads, potentially causing a skid. Braking early is the correct way to handle turns anyway, so it's a good habit to get into. The resulting braking system should allow you to slow down for the turn in plenty of time, as long as you realize what's coming up. If you end up in a turn that's too sharp while going too fast, the best policy is let off the brake some and just ride it out.

Dusting is so minimal on the rears, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Noise is a small concern, but I've found rotating the pads can help with that. HP+ for the rears is a real commitment, though, because if you buy a set they will last a LO-O-ONG TIME, maybe like 70k miles or more. Rear rotors tend to last a while as well. Might be the last rear brake parts you ever buy!

Browsing through some braking website i see EBC has released an "orange stuff" pad.
Has some pretty high claims considering the bluestuff does so well.
From EBC site:
"The Orangestuff pads grip with approx. 0.5 Mu first brake and never drop below 0.4 which is quite stable and would not be noticed in race use,
these pads do NOT fade. "

Whatever you do, don't use those pads for daily street use, or you'll learn what brake dust is really all about, and your rotors will be gone within 8k miles. EBC compares their OrangeStuff compound to the Hawk DTC-30 I used this spring. It is for track use only.

But if you want to see what race-level braking is all-about, buy them and install for a week or so. Then spend another week cleaning off the coat of black powder that seems to chemically bond to chrome. Seriously, it's bad enough that after trying the power ball for most of the day, I almost resorted to steel wool.

Referencing the EBC link, I found some interesting statements explaining why racers might need to use OrangeStuff compound:

"Bluestuff is a material capable of track use on most vehicles and is now also street legal. Bluestuff may work great on better designed calipers on the track but the fastest cars on STREET design calipers may push blue beyond its limits due to reduced cooling, reduced pad release and smaller rotor diameters associated with a standard set up."

That pretty much explains my experience at the track 2 weeks ago, and aligns with the GT-R link posted above. The part I don't like: EBC didn't mention these limitations until they released the OrangeStuff line. They advertised BlueStuff as if they could take any amount of punishment on track.

Finally had to retire my EBC blue stuff front pads.
I installed them 1/18/11 and i had 170k on the car. Today is 12/21/11 and i have 182k on the car.
I brake harder and more often than some race car drivers. I'm sure for the average driver you would be able to get double the mileage out of a set no prob.

I will say that these have held up better than ANY other brake pad i have used. Period.
The wear has been even, as evident in the pictures below. I have no jutter and i was still able to push these hard before seeing fade (though it happens more quickly when that low on pad material).





I am temporarily running my old hawk HPS pads until my new EBC blue stuff pads come in.

Wow, that looks like some very even pad wear. 12k miles of hard braking, not too bad.

Here are mine after ~1800 miles, including the 110 mile track day. So far, very pleased. There has been a small amount of rotor wear, but I don't think it's as bad as with the HP+, and no where near that of the DTC-30 compound.





Dusting is surprisingly low, slightly lower than the HP+, and it's easy to clean off the wheels. So far I've not had any judder or warping of rotors while running these EBC bluestuff pads. The small amount of noise I noticed after install has all but gone away. If there's any to be heard, it goes unnoticed with the windows up.

Yea! Got my new rotors and pads in.
I decided to try the EBC rotors with the EBC pads. Before i was using powerslots.
They are the same price but claim to be quieter with the slot design a little different.
I do like the finish of these compared to the others.


Ordered from perfectbrakes.com with free shipping it came to ~$320 for the front set of pads and rotors. Not bad for confidence to know the car WILL stop when i need it to and i know the rotors will last a long time with these pads and not warp.

One thing i will note is the vanes are supposed to be directional but dont appear to be as much of an angle as the powerslots. Also the slots are more narrow.

Nice. I've used EBC rotors before. I will probably always use slotted rotors with performance pads. The slots act as a gauge to let you know when the rotor is worn too low. With BlueStuff this should take a long time.

Is that arrow etched into the rotor face?

AA wrote:

Nice. I've used EBC rotors before. I will probably always use slotted rotors with performance pads. The slots act as a gauge to let you know when the rotor is worn too low. With BlueStuff this should take a long time.

Is that arrow etched into the rotor face?

Yes the arrow is engraved. 1/2 the depth of the slots i would say.

Got them installed yesterday. The rotor box says to bed them very slowly over 300-400 miles. I normally hot lap them and get them smoking but i think ill follow the box this time.
I still absolutely LOVE this pad compound and the EBC slotted rotors are a bit quieter then the powerslots, as advertised.

Those sure are purdy.

They probably say 300-400 mi to make sure you get all of the black coating off the rotors before bedding in. I'd drive until you see the coating is off, then roast 'em once to get the pads cooked nice and good.

For the rotors, I think bed-in is more important with lower temperature pads, where you'll be depositing layers of compound on a regular basis during daily driving. With a pad like BlueStuff, when you'll be using them hard for a while (track day), bed-in is a good idea. But for daily driving, pads like this usually will scrub down the deposit layer during regular use (disc surface is shiny). In effect, you re-bed the rotors every time you really get on them.