FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads

thanks.

GOOD deal...

I'm just a little leery of the old "if it sounds too good to be true..."

I recently bought front & rear factory ceramic pads from the dealer, and even at my shop price I paid $140 just for the pads.

In The Josh's defense, dealerships charge a lot more than online vendors for the exact same product. He's also got a '95, which has smaller front rotors and I think the same pads. So might be a bit less for the rotors in his case.

If I go to GM Parts Direct, I can order '97 OEM front pads ($101.97 dealer) for $53.04, and the rear pads ($99.00 dealer) for $51.48. So the average person pays $200 + tax at the dealer parts counter, you'd pay $140 + tax with shop discount, and I will pay $104 + shipping & no tax ordering online. Same items, different cost.

But if I look around, I'll find those same OEM pads for an even lower price, or a much better pad for the same or lower price. Plus I have the option to pick a pad compound that does what I need. Maybe I want low dust, maybe I want low noise, maybe I want durability, or maybe I want the car to stop really quick. These are choices we can make to better use our money to get more precisely what we want out of our brakes. In terms of performance, the OEM ceramics don't really compare to some equally priced pad deals out there.

Can someone summarize the different types of pad materiel and their pros and cons? I am about to do brakes and have always gotten semi metallic pads. After reading so much from you guys about these EBC things and ceramics and all I'm not sure what I want anymore.

There could be more information, but this is how I understand it:

Organic: compressed wood & paper, glass, rubber, a soft pad material aka "Non-Asbestos" pads. Low friction, low temperature, light weight. This is a light duty, budget pad found at discount parts stores, not to OEM spec and not a performance pad. It may be quiet, but probably makes dust and has a short life span. Best suited to smaller cars.

Semi-Metallic: a mid-grade pad that uses pieces of iron, copper, mixed into the compound to work at higher temperatures and add bite. They use a better quality binder (glue) to hold the pad together. These pads can be very noisy and dusty, but they will wear longer and more evenly than organic.

Ceramic: engineered for lowest NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) and very low dust. This is the compound used for most OEM applications for obvious reasons. They are light weight, expensive, offer ultra-long life, and have decent stopping power. They also dissipate heat well in most street driven applications, but repeated hard stops can warp rotors, making ceramic less than ideal for heavy duty and spirited driving, and undesirable for track duty.

Carbon Metallic: also called Ferro-Carbon, or Carbon Kevlar, this is a composite blend with pieces of various metals (iron, nickel, brass and bronze, or Kevlar) and a high temperature epoxy binder to increase the friction coefficient - improving stopping performance dramatically. They will stand up to increased heat and generally create less dust than semi-metallic. These are your performance street & race/track pads. Noise level varies from very quiet in street application to very noisy in race applications.

Carbon-Carbon: used only in professional F1, LeMans, and GT class racing vehicles, and a few production cars like Enzo Ferrari, Carrera GT, and Corvette ZR1. These pads are designed to work with carbon rotors. They are delicate to handle, and come at a high price. The ultimate rotor/pad material, overkill for street use.

deekster_caddy wrote:

Can someone summarize the different types of pad materiel and their pros and cons? I am about to do brakes and have always gotten semi metallic pads. After reading so much from you guys about these EBC things and ceramics and all I'm not sure what I want anymore.

My $0.02:

The OEM pads and rotors are a very good choice - to save money buy them right. What you are looking for is Raybestos or Bendix pads and rotors. The upgrade is the drilled and slotted Raybestos "performance" rotors. The OE pads are carbon metallic Raybestos or Bendix. You can get them as "Carquest Blue" at a Carquest auto parts store. You can also get the OE pads in ACDelco brand from a Delco dealer or from Rockauto.com.

The EBC pads (Redstuff) are good and I use them on the fronts but they are dusty compared to the OE pads, they stop better though 'specially once they are warm. IF you do not mind rinsing the dust off the wheels once a week they are fine.

If your front brakes are wearing unevenly you may need to use a file to smooth the casting flash on the caliper or pad sliding surfaces, and be sure to lube with brake silicone lube when reassembling.

The next time I do brakes (it will likely be a couple years) I suspect I'll replace pads and rotors with Raybestos or Bendix. I have EBS Redstuff pads on fronts now and might or might not use them again - they do stop better but I am not thrilled with the dust. Be advised that the EBC Redstuff pads do not dust as much as a typical semimetallic pad. And they give you these cool chrome decals to put in the doorjambs.

Albertj

Thanks guys. I've probably done 100+ brake jobs, but never really cared too much what pads I put in. Never the cheapest pads, I usually got semi-metallics for other people and Raybestos for my own cars. What materiel are the EBC pads of different colors?

I'm using the EBC green pads and the brake dust is next to nothing. When I 1st put on my slotted and cross drilled rotors they came with some stock replacement semi metallic pads. At least twice a week I'd have to clean the wheels due to brake dust turning them black. The EBC pads don't hardly make a sound another plus. They stop the ol boat quite well. On my SS I've used hawk pads with great success. Been 6 years since changing to the Hawks but may change to the EBC's if they last as long on the Rivi
For what auto stores want for stock replacement rotors and pads you can get slotted&cross drilled ones like I did off ebay for just cpl dollars more.

deekster_caddy wrote:

Thanks guys. I've probably done 100+ brake jobs, but never really cared too much what pads I put in. Never the cheapest pads, I usually got semi-metallics for other people and Raybestos for my own cars. What materiel are the EBC pads of different colors?

Greenstuff is organic.

Redstuff is carbon metallic I think.

Details are on EBCs web site (earlier posted)

Albertj

Article from Grass Roots Motorsports Magazine:

Choosing a Compound

Even carbon-based metallic pads are available in different compounds; choosing the right one may require some research and soul-searching. Basically, you need to match the right pad to your application. If you're worried that no one has pads or shoes for your oddball application, rest assured that some suppliers can do custom installations or reline your existing backing plates.

But how do you know which pad is right for you? Well, since no pad can do it all, you need to look at several different areas of concern when shopping for brake pads and shoes. By discussing these concerns with the different suppliers, you should be able to match your needs to the right product.

· Your first concern should be stopping power. This is measured by a friction coefficient, and the higher the coefficient, the more stopping power available from that compound. However, compounds with very high friction coefficients tend to be hard on rotors and drums, which may not be desirable in some situations (like on the street or in an endurance race). Like most things in life (brake pads included), it's a trade-off where you must look at the whole picture and decide which concerns are most important for you and your application.

· Modulation, the lack of the tendency for the brakes to lock up, is also a high concern for most of us. Modulation helps control the car, as locking up the brakes can put you in a spin. Again, different racers need different degrees of modulation. An autocrosser, to whom every hundredth of a second is valuable, simply cannot afford any lockup. Therefore, lots of modulation is important to him. An endurance racer, on the other hand, can deal with less modulation if it means getting longer pad life.

· Fade resistance is another big factor. Every compound has a temperature range in which it likes to operate; matching the compound to your brake temperature range is crucial. Most racing pads have a 600 to 800 degree window for their operating temperature, while brake temperatures generated by street driving tend to be much lower. So there is no way a great road race pad designed to work under high temperatures is going to stop well on the street. Nevertheless, many people seem to labor under a major misconception as they buy "racing" brake pads for their street cars and, when these pads fail to meet their expectations, they feel cheated. Be honest with yourself and buy wisely.

Likewise, a heavier car is going to generate more heat than a lighter car. By working with your vendor, you should be able to match your driving conditions to the proper compound. Tell them what conditions you race under, what tracks you visit and how hard you are on the brakes.

· Rotor and drum friendliness can also be a factor to some drivers, especially those with older cars. Some compounds, while they'll stop you on a dime, can be very hard on rotor and drum surfaces. If you race a car for which these replacement parts are hard to find, like a vintage Bugatti for example, then having friendly pads and shoes may be a prime concern-perhaps even more important than absolute stopping power. Likewise, a set of pads that will chew up a set of rotors every three hours will be of little use to a racer about to run a four-hour enduro.

· For a lot of us, economics also need to be addressed. However, don't simply look at the final price when shopping for new pads and shoes. If a pair of brake pads costs twice as much as the competition but lasts three times as long, which is the better deal?

· While not a huge concern for everybody, brake dust and squeal can be a factor for some people. If neglected, dust can attack the finish on a set of wheels, quickly turning a prized set of rims into an eyesore. At the extreme end, hot flakes from the brake pads can land on the fenders of a car, singing the paint. Now, a road racer may be willing to pay that price, whereas a street driver may not.

For a lot of people who only drive on the street, squealing brakes can be a major inconvenience. If you don't like being tortured by a set of wailing brake pads, move this consideration to near the top of your list.

· The rate of wear is also something to think about, although it is related to many of the factors we already discussed. But to bring back our endurance driver, it may be the most important factor when selecting new shoes and pads. Again, be sure to discuss this factor with the guys selling the goods.

Speaking of wear, some companies offer slightly thicker pads designed for endurance racing. As a side benefit, these thicker pads seem to handle heat better and provide better braking characteristics. (The more pad material, the bigger the heat sink). While extra-thick pads may seem like the answer to everyone's problems, there is a limit-make the pads too thick, and you'll need thinner rotors, which is not a good move.

Matching the Pad to Your Application

The biggest part of buying brake pads is matching the compound to your application. So, let's take a look at some common applications and what kind of braking compound characteristics they require.

· Though they may seem different at first, autocrossers can require the same compounds as high-performance street drivers. Both need effective cold stopping power and lots of modulation.

In autocross, there is no time to bring the brakes up to the temperatures required by many "racing" brake pads. You need full stopping power right off the line, and you need it right away. Likewise, when out on the street, you also have no time to wait for brakes to heat up, and here the stakes are a lot higher. On the street, your brakes have a lot of time to cool off between stops, so it is important to pick a pad that will be happy to work while cool. For both applications, look for compounds designed to work in the 100- to 800-degree range.

Modulation is also important, both when autocrossing and on the street. It's the kiss of death for an autocrosser to lock up a brake. A skid means lost time, which means the run is junk. With only three or four runs at an event, that can be the end of any chances of a trophy. On a road course, a racer can usually overcome or bounce back from a skid on the same lap; autocrossers, by the nature of their sport, don't have that luxury.

Cost and a lack of audible squeal can also be factors, depending upon the individual. Some of us are also willing to live with more dust than others.

· Track events and drivers schools are gaining popularity; these drivers also need to select the right compounds for their needs. Generally, they will be looking for good modulation and lots of stopping power. The main difference between them and the autocrosser is the temperature range of their brakes. Generally, and depending upon the car, driver and track, they'll need to select a compound that works in the 300- to 1100-degree range.

These pads and shoes require some heat to work properly, so you should strongly consider swapping to these "track pads" before heading out on course-just as you mount sticky tires before an event.

· Road racers, whether they be sedan or formula car drivers, also have to look at more at fade resistance. Stopping power and modulation is still very important, but fade resistance throws a new factor into the equation. This will require a pad that can work in the 400- to 1400-degree range, depending on track, car type, length of event, level of brake cooling and driving style.

As road racing conditions can change from event to event, you may want to consider using different pads for varying conditions. Remember that a track like Sebring is a lot harder on brakes than Roebling Road.

Weather conditions can also cause a change in braking compound requirements. In the rain, you may need more modulation than all-out stopping power. Racers are eager to change tires when faced with rain, but why not brake pads? In some situations, like at last year's rainy ARRC, rain and its effect on stopping power is a deciding factor for many drivers.

Economics and rotor/drum friendliness can also be factors for road racers, especially those running endurance events or driving older cars for which replacement brake parts are getting harder to find. As we discussed before, rotor and drum friendliness may be top priority for a vintage car racer.

I hope this will help some people to understand and help resolve all of the brake pad questions.

you always find the best articles Aaron.

just to make sure i understand, modulation is what? the "bite" of the pad, or how it reacts under different peddle pressure?

After reading that i'm glad i bought your old HPS pads. Their resistance to fade and higher heat friction has saved my ass a few times already!

Modulation is how it reacts under different levels of pedal pressure. If you remember a long while ago, I compared braking response by giving a series of number steps: good: 1-3-5-7-9, and bad: 2-6-8. Some might refer to this as brake pedal "feel".

I really miss the HPS pads. They are so quiet and stop so well in adherent mode (high speed, hot). They are also relatively low dusting. The only drawback is that initial warm up stop before they are ready to go. When you use the F-Body calipers, the added size and aluminum casting helps shed heat much better than the OEM caliper. This means your brakes can cool down pretty quickly while driving, so you have to keep using the brakes for them to be effective.

So far I've used organic, semi-metallic, ceramic, and ferro-carbon (HPS & HP+) on the car. The HPS are the best all around pad I've used so far. The HP+ are better at stopping, but with lots of noise and slightly more dust (not terrible, though). One reason I am keeping the HP+ for now is that it seems to bite better when cold. I think this is because it is just so abrasive that it works like sandpaper to dig into the rotor. Not good for the rotor, but it solves to issue of operating cold. This is another reason I'm running the HP+ compound: to see how badly they wear the rotors, and to know if they help reduce the possibility of disc run-out.

EatDirtFartDust wrote:

I saw these on ebay, offered $150 (with free shipping) and they took it. On the firs try too, so you might even get them cheaper than I did.

Link

Let me know if link doesn't work.

Update on these, I was very impressed with the rotors, they're very thick, and I would be surprised if I managed to warp them. The pads came with a box labeled "Scorched, no break-in needed" so I bolted up the rotors and pads, and hit the road. Been driving on them for about three weeks, work great.

Last week I replaced pads and rotors on my RIv. Took off the EBCs and the rotors I had on (Bendix); replaced with Ate rotors (Ate is the OEM for the calipers we have) and Raybestos PGPlus carbon metallic pads.

WHy?

The EBCs had worn the rotors too thin to turn (second set of pads for these rotors). So this change was PM.

Was happy with the EBCs and would consider using them again, definitely. The EBC's STOP better than other pads I have used, but not much better than the Raybestos PG Plus. However, I am also happy not to be dealing with the brake dust - the Raybestos stop well enough and don't dust worth a darn.

Albertj

Thanks for the update, albertj. Which EBC pad compound were you running?

How many miles would you estimate were on the Bendix rotors? How many of those miles did you run the EBC pads?

AA wrote:

Thanks for the update, albertj. Which EBC pad compound were you running?

How many miles would you estimate were on the Bendix rotors? How many of those miles did you run the EBC pads?

EBC Redstuff pads. For those of you who don't know Redstuff is a "low dusting" carbon metallic compound. Best stopping pads I've ever used, although not *that* much better than the Raybestos PG Plus.

I originally put the rotors on, on 7/4/2007 - bendix rotors and Raybestos pads - 167529 miles. I put the EBC pads on 2/7/2009, at about 198,900 miles. My post with comments is earlier in this thread. So about 31,000 miles already on the rotors. Remember - most of my driving is highway driving, I'll drive *years* (at least 2 years/40-50 K miles) between brake jobs if the brake job is done right.

I only replaced the Raybestos pads because I had a caliper that was sticking for some reason and wore the pad thin on the drivers side inboard. If it were not for that they would only have been about 1/3 worn when I did the replacement. So I would guess 10-ish K miles on the EBCs and 40K total miles on the rotors. They stopped OK but the EBCs had evenly worn into the rotors about 1 MM or so deep on each face - leaving a pronounced ridge at the top and at the bottom of the inboard and outboard rotor faces. Since I had already purchased parts (AutohausAZ was running a special: free shipping on orders over $75 - so a pair of Ate rotors for about $100 looked *real* good with free shipping) I figured I was better off putting them on now rather than having to put them on some time this winter. Checked teh rears again and they are fine, still running the Raybestos pads/Bendix rotors I put on there at 168K miles, I'd say they are about 2/5 done.

Albertj

Would you say the EBC's were more abrasive on the Rotor's than the Raybestos pads.???

Also, I thought you started a thread on brakes to discuss just this topic. performance brakes.!
But when I searched Brakes I couldn't find anything that you authored.??????

Albertj, your post was merged with the thread you are reading, link is here:

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/brakes-suspension-f6/rotors-and-pads-t2081-120.htm
Sorry, I should have read through those original posts - your info about the EBC pads was there.

Since the name of the board is Riviera Performance, any topic on rotors and pads can be considered "performance" rotors & pads, so I'm throwing it all together here. If you were specifically targeting a separate issue, such as judder, noise, fluid, or a special brake set-up, it could get its own thread. Just trying to stick to the plan of keeping similar threads condensed together.

Got it! made the maintenance log entry and corrected my post.

And thanks for the explanation Aaron.

Albertj

Just ordered a set of front Powerslot slotted 12" rotors, and rear Brembo solid rotors. i will be placing another order for some more HPS hawk pads as well. total cost $325 shipped. i really hope i get more than 3 months out of these rotors before they start showing heat cracks.
I think having the new rims added a huge brake cooling upgrade. With my 12 spoke wheels the caliper would get super hot and take a long time to cool down before i could work on the brakes. (had less than 2cm space between the rim and caliper too)
Now, with the 18s i can literally touch the calipers immediately after driving. Regardless of what product i choose, i should have a cooler brake set-up which will work better and be less prone to warpage and thermal stress.
I've heard good things about the powerslots and i could not turn down the price for the rear brembos ($43 for BOTH, shipped, on amazon).

Oh, and if this doesnt do the trick i guess i'm out of options
my goal is to quit messing with my brake set-up and just maintain it! i do drive the car hard and can live with getting a set of HPS pads every 20k miles, but i cant afford 3 sets of front rotors every year at $200/set.

Damn! the rear brembos are out of stock. i knew it was too good to be true. est 3-4 weeks but that's not even for sure.
what's another place i can order the rear brembos from? tire rack used to carry them, but not anymore.

I did a search and they are becoming hard to find! I bought mine from AutoBarn.com, but they no longer stock. I've found some others stocking them for about $50 per rotor. I seem to remember paying about $15 per rotor + shipping.