Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod

Is ZZ Performance the only place to get these 20.5" ss lines?

J. Chris Davis wrote:

Is ZZ Performance the only place to get these 20.5" ss lines?

ZZP was the only place that I knew of when I did mine a couple of years ago.
But, the prices that ZZP sells these for are the same as getting a regular rubber Raybestos hose from your local auto parts store. So, it's a good deal.
Just be sure to get the ones for the Bonneville as they are long enough to work properly on the front and if your buying the rears also, they are the same size as our stock ones and fit good.
I bought the full set and am glad I did.

Ok, thanks. I figured ZZP was about it. I'm just going to get the longer fronts for now. They are the 20.5" SS lines. Looks like they run about $70. Probably gonna spend the next couple of months collecting the stuff for this project. Also going to replace my rotors and all my pads. Going with new everything I think.

Just a note for anyone installing the stainless break lines, you'll need to zip them to the strut. Over time, the line can slide/rub against the strut, wearing the clear coating that protects the braids. A good way to shield them from contact is to insert a length of split loom, working as a sleeve so the line can move freely inside. Also shields against tire rub and debris:

ok. i have the alu knuckle,but somewhere else along this thread it was mentioned by Rivman,i believe,that you had to swap the 95 strut and spring assmebly to a 97/98. was this mistaken? just want to clarify before i go back to the job....

yes you must swap out the strut assembly and springs. see page 15

Mr.Riviera wrote:

yes you must swap out the strut assembly and springs. see page 15

interesting but i still dont see why i have to use a different spring/strut set up. i read it throughly and dont see it??can someone smack me in the head or what?

with the 97+ spindle the 95/96 strut will not bolt up to it. The struts are not the same size and the height from the knuckle bolts to the ball joint are different. Even if you could fab up a way for the bolts to line up, you would have a "tall" knuckle mated to a long "strut" essentially giving the riv a 1-2 inch lift in the wheel wells.
with the 97+ strut, the 96 rubber insulators can not be used due to differences in the springs and spring placement.
you can not reuse the 96 top mounts because the top isolators on the springs do not function the same as the 96's and you WILL scrape the top of the hood with the strut rods. i found this out the hard way.

Mr.Riviera wrote:

with the 97+ spindle the 95/96 strut will not bolt up to it. The struts are not the same size and the height from the knuckle bolts to the ball joint are different. Even if you could fab up a way for the bolts to line up, you would have a "tall" knuckle mated to a long "strut" essentially giving the riv a 1-2 inch lift in the wheel wells.
with the 97+ strut, the 96 rubber insulators can not be used due to differences in the springs and spring placement.
you can not reuse the 96 top mounts because the top isolators on the springs do not function the same as the 96's and you WILL scrape the top of the hood with the strut rods. i found this out the hard way.

So, What are you trying to say.? It can't be done. I think so.

Hey, Robo, is that a big enough smack on the friggin head. Get used to it, you bought the wrong year car. Sorry...........

It most definatly can be done. Take a look at my sig. I just want to make sure he knows what to expect.

I know it can be done by replacing the 95 parts with later year parts, but he seemed to be bucking the notion that, that much work and parts needed replacing.
Maybe I misunderstood as usual.

dang it! well i have another little idea to bake noodles. i have the perfect coil over conversion set up, for the front. its only a few hundred $ away,and will work with all riv years.95to99. it will allow me to use ,bilsteins,or tokikos,or any other hot suspension set up on the market. so there!

That will be my next move when these kybs die.

robotennis61 wrote:

dang it! well i have another little idea to bake noodles. i have the perfect coil over conversion set up, for the front. its only a few hundred $ away,and will work with all riv years.95to99. it will allow me to use ,bilsteins,or tokikos,or any other hot suspension set up on the market. so there!

How would changing to coil overs allow you to use Tokiko Brakes.
One generally has nothing to do with the other.

But, I know brackets can be made to fit Tokiko's and many other calipers to any knuckle you want them to and get good darn brakes.

We do it on the older Harleys all the time and there are a couple of guys making the custom brackets and providing the calipers, new or used, as well. Helps these older bigger bikes get slowed down in a hurray. The OEM calipers don't compare and the new disks available are more conducive to better pads best left to the newer multi-pot calipers.

One thing leads to another, which is mostly the case - isn't it. That's what you mean by upgrading the struts to coil overs, that then allows the brake upgrade, DUH. Sorry dude.

I'll just go off in the corner and talk to myself for a while...............................................

yah,you sed it. tokikos are struts. they have nothing to do with brakes. i have studied the problem ,and found a set up that will allow any late model riv to have a choice of hot struts and springs. you can use any spring that you want. eibach,ground control,anything thats not more than 2 1/2 ' in diam. ill take pics as soon as i come up with the dosh to do it. i have the formula and it will work.

robotennis61 wrote:

yah,you sed it. tokikos are struts. they have nothing to do with brakes. i have studied the problem ,and found a set up that will allow any late model riv to have a choice of hot struts and springs. you can use any spring that you want. eibach,ground control,anything thats not more than 2 1/2 ' in diam. ill take pics as soon as i come up with the dosh to do it. i have the formula and it will work.

Tokiko makes brake calipers as well. just so you know I'm not totally deranged. And, if you didn't specify, i would have no way of knowing which you were referring to. Especially since I did not know they made struts as well. Since you were posting in the F-Brake thread, my assumption was you were talking about brake calipers that are available for your year car.
So you are still fucked as far as fitting a later 2 piston caliper to a 95 without having to change a ton of parts. If that's the case why are you opining in this thread. It's confusing to say the least.
Rick

tokiko makes motorcycle calipers. i dont think they have made car calipers in years.
if i were going to do this mod right away,i would have everything except the strut and spring of the later years. allthough i am not convinced i cant make the 95 set up work. i take everyones word for it, but i would like to get down in there to see for myself. i thought i had the brackets for the mod but morads sent me the brackets for a 97 riviera. somehow as i was ordering the 97 /98 aluminum knuckles i asked for the firebird/camaro caliper brackets. i was sent the 97 riv brackets. oh well they promptly refunded my card and now i am still looking for the brackets. in light of the info mr.Riviera gave me,and barring me finding out for myself,ill continue to save up for my coilover adjustable conversion. at that point i can run premium springs and struts without worrying about using later years set up. clear enough for ya?

http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=591&catid=138

yes but i dont recommend it.
I had fbody's on my riv with the stock 12 spoke rims and found they hold in too much heat. i was going through rotors every few months and it stopped when i got the 18's.
there was about 1/4" gap between the fins on the calipers and the rims barrel. if needed you could sand down a little of the fins but should be necessary with the rims in your sig.

Note: forget about using the stock spare doughnut over the fbodys. you would need to swap the back to the front and put the spare on the rear if you blew a front tire. just something to keep in mind.

I ran F-body calipers under OEM chrome 7 spokes for a while. I'm not certain if the rims contributed to the rotors warping, or if it was more the choice of pad compound. Whatever the case, the F-body brakes will fit, and they surely offer better thermal characteristics than the OEM calipers with stock wheels, so it can only be an improvement. Running bigger brakes with stock wheels wouldn't be any worse than the original set-up.

Wheels do contribute to brake cooling, but sometimes it's misleading how they do this. A wheel does two things: 1) acts as a heat sink, 2) allows air to reach the caliper for convection cooling. As a sink, our stock alloy wheels should do well to conduct heat away from the rotor through the hub. The large surface area of our stock wheels should be a help here, similar to how a larger caliper and/or rotor helps shed heat. While it's true that a thinner spoke design may let air access the brakes, it doesn't guarantee convection will be optimum. Some wheels actually use fan-like spokes to actively pump air through the wheel to cool the brakes, but most are passive designs that don't offer this advantage. Also, thin spokes may not work as well at heat sinking, unless they are larger in size.

So while aftermarket rims probably help depending, I think our OEM alloys are better than say, a set of steel wheels would be for cooling duties. I'm a firm believer in selecting pad compounds that offer the appropriate heat range for the specific brake set-up and driving needs. If you're having trouble warping rotors, performance pads will probably make a bigger improvement than changing the wheels, imo.

Thanks Guys!

One last question... will the stainless lines that are shown for the kit fit??
I thought I read somewhere here that longer lines were reqd....

They should offer an option for longer lines when you order. Chose the option for G-body (bonneville). Also, make sure to get the right brackets for using the stock 14mm Buick caliper screws. Avoid the sleeves + f-body 12mm screws!

U DA MAN Aaron!!

With the new set-up, you'll have a bigger selection of pad compounds to chose from. If you want to stop quicker, try a high performance street or "club" track pad. Otherwise, the biggest benefit you'll see is firmness (SS lines), and longevity (larger pad surface). You must upgrade the pad to see shorter stopping distances.

A couple months back I had the chance to test my F-Body calipers on a high speed road course. During the 55 laps (2-miles each), I averaged about 6 braking events per lap, 2 of those from speeds of 90-110 mph. So approx 330 braking events, 110 of those being big stops.

Performance was very good running EBC BlueStuff NDX pads, but I felt like I was pushing close to their limits. To read more on the performance of these pads, click here:

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t2081p360-faq-brake-rotors-and-pads

Otherwise, the F-Body calipers seemed up to the job. I experienced no brake fade, no warping rotors, or any other serious issues at the track. Also no problems up to the time of this posting, after 4k miles daily driving. One thing I did notice last time I had the front wheels off - something I originally missed after returning from the track - there is some damage to the rubber caliper bushings(slide pin boots) on the caliper bracket:



This damage occurred only on the lower bushings, inline with the extreme heat and debris ejected from the pad and rotor surfaces during hard braking. I've never seen this effect to the boot in the 3+ years these calipers have been on the car. It's only happened this one time, after the heavy, repeated stops on track. Perhaps age was also a contributor. The heat/debris can be seen in a video I took over the summer of hard braking with HP + pads (scroll to bottom of linked page):

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t2081p345-faq-brake-rotors-and-pads

The good news: replacement boots are inexpensive at $3/pair. The bad news: I need to remember to check/replace them after any future track events, unless I can find a material that will stand up to the abuse. Silicone comes to mind, if such a product exists. Just giving a heads up - if you have the F-Bodies and plan on doing some serious braking, check the lower slide pin boots from time to time for wear.