fuel cleaners & octane boost additives?

madrivage wrote:

LoL.Seriously though,my car has a VERY slight ping at WOT when on 91 octane (has since I bought it).Changing to 605's nearly eliminated it,but it was still there.With the Toluene it is completely GONE.

Try using a AL104. Or, if you wanna stay platinum, 604's. 91 Octane sux. I use 93, or at minimum 92. The colder plugs are cheaper than the gas.....Technically, your not supposed to gap platinum plugs (which is why I recommend copper), but if you lessen the gap around .050 -.055 it helps with knock also.

Where in the hell did you get toluene? I've been looking for some to make my own octane booster, but I can't find any that's not already mixed with other crap.

The car should not knock using 91 octane. Something is wrong. Remember, you're still running a stock boost level.

Quote :

With all due respect AA,my but dyno is top notch!! LoL.Seriously though,my car has a VERY slight ping at WOT when on 91 octane (has since I bought it).Changing to 605's nearly eliminated it,but it was still there.With the Toluene it is completely GONE.Not to mention my car pulls extremely hard all the way up to 100mph,whereas before I could feel the timing retard (loss of power)felt as a flat spot when in 3rd gear kickdown at WOT.It is a totally different experience now altogether.Another butt dyno fact is that I could light up the tires for a brief moment before with 91 octane,but not much.It would hook up and grab after a second or two.Now I can damn near spin the tires all the way through 1st gear!! That really surprised me.I totally respect your opinion,but remember this aint my first rodeo when it comes to hot rods by far,so my but dyno has about 23 yrs of experience.

I'm not doubting your butt dyno entirely, but it doesn't matter how good it is at feeling things under the hood, your ass cannot explain to us the exact reason why you are feeling it. If you just start trying things, and relying on your best guess as to what is really going on and why, you are using a trial & error method to solve the problem - it can work, but you risk not finding the true problem and only masking it.

Here are a couple knock-chasing stories to read if you have a few minutes.

#1. I once had audible knock just like you are describing. It would only happen when it was colder outside, below ~65ºF. I could not feel any power being lost, but sure enough I could hear the ping; it was consistent with WOT application. People on forums told me I could not hear knock, but I knew it was real. I tried knock-reducing mods, including higher octane fuel with some success. I finally thought I had identified the issue, so now I began working on reducing the knock...

Well, I couldn't kill the knock, no matter what I tried. I got it to almost go away, but it would always come back. Finally, I got a scanner and actually analyzed the car. THIS IS WHAT I SHOULD HAVE DONE TO BEGIN WITH. I discovered some odd things: I would see a slight amount of KR (3-5º) reported with the scanner on warmer days, but no audible knock. On cooler days, I would hear the pinging, but surprisingly KR reading was zero! This confused the hell out of me, but I kept scanning and eventually discovered what was happening. At exactly the point when my coolant temperatures stepped from 157º to 158º, the audible knock would disappear and then I would start seeing KR on the scanner.

It turned out the 160º t-stat I had bought to help reduce knock was actually causing it! Little did the 3800 community know, the Riviera's PCM was programed for whatever reason to ignore input from the knock sensors until the engine is warmed up (above 157ºF). Below that point, there is no KR, only audible knock. Using the 160º t-stat on colder nights allowed the engine temp to stay below that threshold, causing the problem.

The best butt dyno in the world would not have figured out that problem just by feeling and listening, and changing things. Even the pros at INTENSE racing were unaware of the Riviera's special PCM program, as other 3800 cars did not have this issue with the 160º t-stat. Solution: tune the knock sensors to start listening at -40ºF and higher, or run a 180º t-stat instead.
_____________________

Story #2. I once had a very subtle ping sound at WOT and under certain heavy loads (low RPM cruising). Also the car felt a bit sluggish. This issue crept up over a long period of time, until it started to worry me. Using a scanner I was able to verify the knock I was hearing was in fact KR reported to the PCM. That right there is invaluable info when troubleshooting this kind of stuff, because it ruled out the previous situation. The knock was real, the PCM was hearing it, but could not adjust timing enough to compensate. After some research and discussion at our board, I started to suspect it was lack of fuel delivery creating a lean condition. One possible solution: fuel pump was not building enough pressure.

Rather than replace the fuel pump on a whim, I decided to build a fuel pressure gauge and read the rail PSI at WOT. Turns out pressure was very high, so it was not the fuel pump. After ruling out a few other things, it was decided the injectors needed replaced or cleaned. I found a great deal on a rebuilt set, and after installing them not only did the knock disappear, I picked up an estimated 20 HP! And I was not only trusting my butt dyno for that measurement. I used a scanner to log before & after WOT runs and graphed the acceleration curves together. There it was, problem solved 100%. Another one I probably never would have figured out on my own. Using the right diagnostic tools has saved me a lot of time and money when it comes to chasing knock and KR.

Before and after WOT runs, graphed. Yellow line is an older run. Red line is from just before installing the new injectors, blue line is from after installation:

Quote :

Where in the hell did you get toluene? I've been looking for some to make my own octane booster, but I can't find any that's not already mixed with other crap.

I picked it up at both my local hardware store in the paint dept.,and at a larger commercial paint supply (they had gallon cans).It's too damn expensive for a long term solution at $20 bucks a gallon!!

Quote :

I'm not doubting your butt dyno entirely, but it doesn't matter how good it is at feeling things under the hood, your ass cannot explain to us the exact reason why you are feeling it. If you just start trying things, and relying on your best guess as to what is really going on and why, you are using a trial & error method to solve the problem - it can work, but you risk not finding the true problem and only masking it.

AA once again I completely agree.The real issue is I'm an old school rodder that is having a hard time coming to grips with the fact that I am forced to buy a high dollar scan/tune set up to do this work.My butt dyno ruled the streets back in the day,however I'm a long way from 450h.p. and four wheel drum brakes.LoL...Seriously though,that is the root of the issue as you very well know.I need to get some scans logged and do this the right way period.The old butt dyno has been obsolete for years I suppose.I need to get up to speed (pun intended) with the whole computer diagnostics game.I'm warning you though,when I get a scanner/tuner I will have a boatload of questions as I have obviously never dove into those waters before.The main thing I have gleaned from all of this is that I definitely need to know where my KR levels are and I am expecting an improvement when they are addressed (even with stock pulley).It goes without being said really,but if I'm gonna drop the coin on some diagnostic tools the 3.4 pulley will be on my shopping list as well.I was just trying to stop the money bleed I have had since buying this car a couple of months ago.On a side note I have not seen ANY codes since all of the work I have done to her!She has the aluminum L.I.M. gaskets,new struts,fuel filter,O2 sensor,MAF sensor,IAC valve,K&N filter,and fresh trans fluid.So I am on the right track,and she is running considerably well as compared to when I bought her.No more idle issues,and great throttle response etc.I won't post any more in regards to the state of my engine until I get a good scan on her,as I can clearly see that old school does not apply here without the hard numbers to crunch.Numbers which can only be had by a good scan of the system.Chalk it up to old dog learns new tricks I suppose.Thanks for the time,effort,and patience. Don

LOL. You sound like my service writer. Every time I try to explain why it is that a customers car needs a sensor of some sort, he looks at me like a deer staring into the headlights of doom. The exact same concepts apply, it's just that we now have an over-abundance of sensors and computers to deal with. No more turning the distributor for timing......
It's actually VERY fun to play with a tuner. Dangerous, yet fun. Do it right and you're gold........

madrivage wrote:

Quote :

Where in the hell did you get toluene? I've been looking for some to make my own octane booster, but I can't find any that's not already mixed with other crap.

I picked it up at both my local hardware store in the paint dept.,and at a larger commercial paint supply (they had gallon cans).It's too damn expensive for a long term solution at $20 bucks a gallon!!

X2 Toluene at local hardware store in paint supplies dept by the gallon. But too expensive except for occasional use.

Makes sense. I'm asking because I found a good recipe for a homemade octane booster, just couldn't find any Toluene. Shoulda looked harder I spose.....

Did you put straight Toluene in the tank? What's the mix ratio? Or should I just make my homemade octane booster? I'd have to find the ingredient list again....

It's Woodward Dream Cruise weekend. There's gonna be alot of Riviera food on the road, and I want it runnin puuurfect.

Thx AA. That's seems pretty pointless then actually. I can get 94 octane here np. Maybe I'll just go add a few gallons of 110.

It's not worth the price, the effort, or the hazard, imo. Racing teams used to use it for turbo cars, because of its knock resistance, combined with the higher energy (BTU) content of Toluene. But they quite because the more % toluene you use, the harder it is to atomize through the injectors. The solution is to heat the fuel up to 150º+F. This practice moves beyond expensive, dangerous, and time-consuming into downright crazy territory.

Plus, the idea of messing around with mixing your own fuel is dangerous. Toluene is some nasty stuff that can mess up your brain and nervous system if you aren't careful. Just for a few points of super expensive octane?

I have to admit though, even at the higher cost, it makes more sense than using E85.

Eh, I'd prolly get investigated for attempting to make a Meth-lab being so close to Detroit anyway lol.

madrivage wrote:

Quote :

I'm not doubting your butt dyno entirely, but it doesn't matter how good it is at feeling things under the hood, your ass cannot explain to us the exact reason why you are feeling it. If you just start trying things, and relying on your best guess as to what is really going on and why, you are using a trial & error method to solve the problem - it can work, but you risk not finding the true problem and only masking it.

AA once again I completely agree.The real issue is I'm an old school rodder that is having a hard time coming to grips with the fact that I am forced to buy a high dollar scan/tune set up to do this work.My butt dyno ruled the streets back in the day,however I'm a long way from 450h.p. and four wheel drum brakes.LoL...Seriously though,that is the root of the issue as you very well know.I need to get some scans logged and do this the right way period.The old butt dyno has been obsolete for years I suppose.I need to get up to speed (pun intended) with the whole computer diagnostics game.I'm warning you though,when I get a scanner/tuner I will have a boatload of questions as I have obviously never dove into those waters before.The main thing I have gleaned from all of this is that I definitely need to know where my KR levels are and I am expecting an improvement when they are addressed (even with stock pulley).It goes without being said really,but if I'm gonna drop the coin on some diagnostic tools the 3.4 pulley will be on my shopping list as well.I was just trying to stop the money bleed I have had since buying this car a couple of months ago.On a side note I have not seen ANY codes since all of the work I have done to her!She has the aluminum L.I.M. gaskets,new struts,fuel filter,O2 sensor,MAF sensor,IAC valve,K&N filter,and fresh trans fluid.So I am on the right track,and she is running considerably well as compared to when I bought her.No more idle issues,and great throttle response etc.I won't post any more in regards to the state of my engine until I get a good scan on her,as I can clearly see that old school does not apply here without the hard numbers to crunch.Numbers which can only be had by a good scan of the system.Chalk it up to old dog learns new tricks I suppose.Thanks for the time,effort,and patience. Don

I suspect you will *really* like the tuner once you get one and get the hang of it. Don't conflate computer diagnositcs with computer tuning. In computer diagnostics, all the sensors can tell you is their readings are or are not in expected range. The thing that drives some techs crazy is figuring out what the readings mean, many of them are not patient enough to ever really suss that out, and it's easier for them to (on the customer's dime) throw parts at a problem until it is fixed or until the customer gets frustrated and goes elsewhere or sells/trades the vehicle. In general the computer is telling them is a reading is out of range but they are expecting the computer to tell them what is wrong and what part to replace.

In computer tuning, you kind of have to understand a priori what the system and subsystems do, what the sensors are saying, what the relevant readings are and what you can in fact control given you get a certain reading on a certain sensor. But then, the cool thing is that just like when you say regrind a cam to get different lift for better bottom-end acceleration or better high-rev power, you often can simply reporgram the computer to get different behavior - and the dirty little secret is that once you get the basics of the computer control strategy (which is not that hard) then reprogramming the computer is **wayyyy** easier than regrinding the cam, within the relevant range of performance changes. I'm excited for you - - someone who understands old-school tuning and combines that with new-school (computer) tuning is going to give the term Hot Rod a whole new and exciting meaning. I don't know what you'll like better -- the performance you get with a blend of old-and new-school modifications, or the laughing you will do when you discover how much the manufacturers have intentionally *DE-tuned* modern vehicles for various reasons.

Put another way - you are about to discover why the crank of the SC 3800 engine was designed and over-engineered to take hundreds and hundreds of horsepower...

Albertj

anybody ever use the Fitch catalyst? they claim more HP and mileage. is it just snake oil?

It's not looking good in my book. I had to take a screen capture of this one:

dose bastahds! i f/////g hate scams. WTF...how do they get away with this s..t?
the tornado has got to be another one..

Then you're gonna' LOVE this one: http://www.fueldoctorusa.com/

They claim to improve your HP, mileage and "carbon footprint"
(gotta' hook the racers, cheapskates and tree-huggers,)
by reducing the excess electrical noise in your fuel injection system - through your cigarette lighter!

Actually, I think it improves your mileage by reducing the weight of excess cash in your pocket...

damn! even the nascar drivers are using it. how do they sleep at night?

Ok, I brought the article home, so here it is. It's a Tech Link that GM techs got once a month. This one in particular focuses on Fuel

"Fuel Economy Facts and Myths"
August 2008
Volume 10, No. 8

As gasoline prices have increased, the consumer has shifted priorities to become increasingly concerned with fuelk consumption. Many myths and a few facts about improving fuel economy are making the rounds in various news media and internet postings.
Bulletin #05-00-89-072A contains reasonable and prudent advice to get the most from every gallon or litre of gas and is written with the consumer in mind. You are encouraged to give a copy to your customers and post a copy in your customer lounge. Here are some highlights...

WHAT NOT TO DO: Engine and Fuel Additives, Alternate Fuels, and "Miracle" Products

Various unproven products to improve vehicle fuel economy have been reported, ranging from magnets that align molecules to chemical combustion improvers.

The U.S. Federal Trade Commission summarizes results for products tested by the federal government at www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/autos/aut10.shtm.
The majority did not work, and for those that showed effect, the benefit was too small to be cost effective.
These are some harmful ideas that may damage the vehicle and increase emissions...

Blending Kerosene or Diesel Fuel into Gasoline
Do not attempt. This may result in inconsistent performance and permanent damage to the vehicle. Both kerosene and diesel fuel are distillate fuels not meant for use in spark ignition engines. They have very low octane and, because they have greater density than gasoline, they will cause heavy engine deposits and degradation of engine oil.

Blending Chemical Solvents Into Gasoline

Do not attempt. These include acetone, ketones, and methanol. These solvents can be incompatible with the vehicles rubber or sealing components, and may dissolve the vehicles paint finish. In the case of methanol, corrosion of metal parts in the fuel system also may occur.

Although it is impossible to predict the effects of adding various chemical additives to gasoline in an attempt to increase fuel economy, often the results can be damaging. These pictures show 6.2L V8 engine components that were run for less than 3000 miles on gasoline that had a small amount (less than 1%) biodiesel added to it. (I wish I could show you guys the pics, it's horrifying)
Damage to vehicle components that result from non-approved or aftermarket additives and devices are not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty. The only fuel additive currently approved by GM is GM Fuel System Treatment Plus, p/n 88861011 (in Canada, 88861012).

WHAT TO DO: Maximizing Fuel Economy/Minimizing Costs

Tge best fuel economy possible is the direct result of proper maintenance and good driving habits. Listed below are GM's recommendations to achieve the best mileage possible.
Vehicle Considerations:
Tire Pressure - A major contributor to poor fuel economy is under-inflated tires, which create drag that the vehicles powertrain must overcome. Keeping tires inflated to the proper pressure shown on the vehicle placard not only serves to increase gas mileage but cuts down on tire wear, further decreasing cost per mile.
Air Filter - The engine can't efficiently draw air through a dirty air filter, which wastes fuel. Recommended change intervals are found in the Owners Manual.
Proper Viscosity Starburst Rated Oil - Always use the proper viscosity oil, described in the Owners Manual. Oil that has a higher than required viscosity will create more drag on the internal components of the engine, causing more work for it, especially when cold. Tip: Look for the starburst symbol on the front of the bottle, and the SM rating on the API circle on the back of the label. Tip: GM vehicles DO NOT require additional oil additives. Some additives may cause harmful effects to the internal seals and additionally void the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.
Top Tier Fuels - Some fuel manufacturers provide gasoline advertised as Top Tier Detergent Gasoline. These fuels are preferable when and where available. They help to keep fuel injectors and intake valves free of deposits. Clean engines provide optimal fuel economy, performance and reduced emissions. When Top Tier Fuels are nt available, a bottle of GM Fuel System treatment Plus at oil change time will remove intake system and injector deposits. GM does not recommend any other fuel system cleaner. Tip: DO NOT confuse Top Tier fuels with higher octane fuel (plus/premium grade) commonly sold at most gas stations. Plus/premium fuels are required in some high performance GM vehicles. However, they do not necessarily represent higher detergency present in Top Tier Detergent Gasoline.
Tip: For additional information regarding Top Tier fuels and availability, refer to Bulletin #04-06-04-047G for U.S. or #05-06-04-022D for Canada.
E85 Fuels - Only vehicles designated for use with E85 should use E85 blended fuel. These vehicles are certified to run on up 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. All other gasoline engines are designed to run on fuel that contains no more than 10% ethanol. Use of fuel containing greater than 10% ethanol in non-E85 designated vehicles can cause driveability issues and Service Engine Soon indicators, as well as increased fuel system corrosion. See Bulletin #05-06-04-035C for further information.
Use the Recommended Grade (octane) Fuel - Purchasing higher than required octane fuel is a waste of money. Using higher octane fuels in a vehicle that requires regular unleaded fuel will neither increase performance nor improve gas mileage. In all cases, refer to the Owners Manual and use only the octane rated fuel recommended for the vehicle.
Tip: High performance GM vehicles that do require premium fuel (91 octane or higher), MUST use fuel of at least this octane. Use of lower octane fuel may result in reduced performance, knocking, and/or permanent engine damage not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.
Check Engine/Service Engine Soon Light - When the Check Engine or SES light is on, the vehicles on-board diagnostics computer has detected something wrong. This may result in increased fuel consumption, increased emissions, and/or driveability concerns.
Spark Plugs - Most current GM vehicles have 100,000 mile (160,000 km) service intervals for spark plugs. At that point, change the spark plugs to assure proper running and continued efficient, trouble free operation. Refer to the applicable maintenance schedule for spark plug service intervals on Aveo, Optra, Epica, Vibe, Wave and Astra.

The rest of it talks about changes in driving habits. I'll summarize it.
-Avoid quick/full throttle acceleration from a standstill and high cruising speeds. Although cruising MPG varies from vehicle to vehicle, faster is almost always worse.
-Empty the Trunk
-Avoid Extended Idling. There is no need to idle until the engine reaches operating temperature. Idling wastes fuel.
-Combine Trips. A vehicle uses more fuel when it is cold. -Combine errands so the vehicle only has to warm up once, especially during winter months.

Written by Jay Dankovich


And yes, for those of you who want to see the Bulletins listed in this article, I will post them or provide a link (if I can access them still)

GREAT post, Scott - gave you a plus...

Might i say, Lucas again!!! Myself, i do like Toluene.

Thanks for the article. I'll still vouch for running the octane that produces no KR in my own vehicles.

What is GM's fuel system treatment plus additive? Good for cleaning injectors? Better than Techron?

Quote :

I'll still vouch for running the octane that produces no KR in my own vehicles.

And if only for the very good reason that an engine produces the most power/torque with 0 KR - it's well worth doing so. I don't think most drivers understand that when you buy a car with an advertised 240HP engine, with certain performance specs (0-60 mph, etc.), you only get those numbers when you use the recommended fuel. Use regular in an engine designed for Premium, your car just lost 10-20HP... or more depending. That's the penalty of retarded timing that comes with KR.

deekster_caddy wrote:

Thanks for the article. I'll still vouch for running the octane that produces no KR in my own vehicles.

What is GM's fuel system treatment plus additive? Good for cleaning injectors? Better than Techron?

That's what it is. It's a Fuel System/Injector cleaner. I know it's some pretty nasty stuff....stinks to high hell. Basically what GM is saying is that if your car (still under warranty) gets a driveability concern that is fuel related, and they find any other additive in it besides that GM stuff, they can void your warranty and make you pay for the repairs (I've had to send in fuel samples for testing before). That GM additive works good, and so does the "older" GM Top Engine Cleaner. It's probably the same as Techron.....

I'll find those Bulletins listed within the article. I'm sure they have much more detailed info.

Abaddon wrote:

deekster_caddy wrote:

Thanks for the article. I'll still vouch for running the octane that produces no KR in my own vehicles.

What is GM's fuel system treatment plus additive? Good for cleaning injectors? Better than Techron?

That's what it is. It's a Fuel System/Injector cleaner. I know it's some pretty nasty stuff....stinks to high hell. Basically what GM is saying is that if your car (still under warranty) gets a driveability concern that is fuel related, and they find any other additive in it besides that GM stuff, they can void your warranty and make you pay for the repairs (I've had to send in fuel samples for testing before). That GM additive works good, and so does the "older" GM Top Engine Cleaner. It's probably the same as Techron.....

I'll find those Bulletins listed within the article. I'm sure they have much more detailed info.

Cool, I'm curious if it does anything for my little spit/stumble at idle. Techron seems to have improved it a little bit, plus I do use top tier fuels, I'm pretty sure the previous owner did not.