FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?

I would be able to do something with it in August, if you are willing to give it up to science, sort of speak.
Any holes would be able to be plugged and smoothed as original.
Just as a reference, I was able to find a used L32 LIM for about $50.00 IIRC.

But I can not do anything in July, other than gather the nozzle's from the various Manufacturer's of Water-Meth Systems and see who does the best at an all around spray pattern while watching and measuring the pressure's in the spray booth.
I will recruit the guru i know and work to his schedule.
I have one of my motorcycles up for sale right now with a couple of buyers playing back and forth.
The sale of this machine will help finance this research project (inexpensive) along with a another that involves some positive displacement combustion on a V-Twin engine.(Much more expensive)

Here is a BMW mod thread taking a similar approach (IC/turbo build):

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1760

I assume all needed info could be acquired at this board.

AA wrote:

Here is a BMW mod thread taking a similar approach (IC/turbo build):

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1760

I assume all needed info could be acquired at this board.

Actually, Not.
That system is custom for it's application and is good for that application as no serious adjustment's have to be made for it's application.

Although,
This would be a somewhat similar system to the Snow System that has a control unit tailored to the GM MAF that controls the fluid amount based on the Hz of MAF.
(0 -5v ) It allows itself to be tied directly into the TPS and MAF, which is one of the systems I am leaning toward because it is tailored to the known frequencies of the GM 3800 System.

Quote :

Actually, Not.
That system is custom for it's application and is good for that application as no serious adjustment's have to be made for it's application.

I have no idea what the above statement means, but the fact that the BMW guy is mounting multiple water sprayers in the manifold, after the compressor, is very similar to what we are trying to do. His is turbo and custom to his application, and ours would be custom to our application, but the principle is the same. There is also a lot of other information in that thread/forum that is applicable to water injection.

Google Snow Performance and look for the unit that is specifically made for the GM with MAF Control.
Right now that site can better explain things.

Nice find, but the kits aren't intended for multi-jet manifold application as far as I can tell. There's also a MAP controlled unit sold there. Kits are a bit more than I'd want to spend at $400+.

According to Snow, there is no problem with injecting before the throttle body:

"Positive Displacement Supercharger: Roots style (B&M, Eaton, Magnuson, etc.) or twin screw (Lysholm, Kenne Bell, Whipple, etc.) Mounting the nozzle before this style of blower is perfectly safe and actually provides some additional benefits. The small amount of water-methanol fluid isn’t harmful to any rotor seals or surfaces or coatings, and it helps to seal the clearances and condense the air some more, resulting in a more efficient output. Additionally, it keeps the rotors and housing MUCH cooler, which reduces heat transfer to the rest of the intake and air charge."

Maybe we should do some more research on the rotor coatings to know if it's really something to be worried about. Obviously, if it's safe to inject pre-blower, there are some clear advantages in doing so.

As, I said, I have watched their website for the past 2 years. At first, they did not offer the GM Maf Controller, but continued to say that Water/Meth, Windshield Washer fluid would not cause any loss of coating. But i didn't believe it based on other input I was receiving.
So I still think, injecting in the LIM is the way to go, otherwise i would have installed the GenV and just shot the the fluid as they recommended.
So, I am still looking to engineer a way to spray in the LIM effectively.

Should be as easy as picking a few places with proper clearance, then threading the correct jet. Many need 6 jets, maybe 2 or 3 would do, as in the BMW example. Then route all to a splitter and use the MAFF kit to control the pump.

My buddy had a buick ultra a few years ago, and he injected straight washer fluid before the throttle body, without any harm to his supercharger rotors. He ran a 8.0 in the 1/8th mile with only long tubes, custom exhaust, 2.8" pulley, meth injection, a tune, drag radials, and a few other small things. The car ran really hard, but with that 2.8" pulley there was quite a bit of heat, but the meth helped out a little bit

How do you know it did not harm the SC rotors? 2.8" is an extremely small pulley - any idea how much boost he was running?

I dont know, well after he had been running that set up for awhile, we rebuilt the supercharger, and he has another supercharger in his garage with very low miles(i still want to buy it, but he wont sell it). We compared the rotors of the two, and the only difference was that the meth rotors were stained a bluish color from running straight washer fluid. I dont know how he even ran a 2.8" pulley to be honest, but he did

Thanks for the info - that's very good to know, from first hand experience.

Washer fluid?

Winter washer fluid often contains a mix of either 50% ethanol or methanol + 50% water. It's very close to the needed mix for water/met injection to the engine, and it's convenient to buy, of course. I think that's why many people use the washer fluid reservoir as their water/meth injection supply. There's no reason it can't be used to supply both sources.

I've heard of 'detergent' gasoline, but this is ridiculous!

Eldo wrote:

I've heard of 'detergent' gasoline, but this is ridiculous!

Would Southern Comfort work?

Abaddon wrote:

Eldo wrote:

I've heard of 'detergent' gasoline, but this is ridiculous!

Would Southern Comfort work?

Nah, too much sugar... But I bet Wild Turkey would make for some sweet-smelling exhaust.

Eldo wrote:

Washer fluid?

Eldo, are you serious about your question using Blue Windshield Washer fluid, good to -20 degrees, or are you being facetious.
That is the recommended fluid for water / methanol injection. At least it is the least expensive if you buy it by the case at Wally World. The manufacturers of the systems will have a product that they sell with the same properties, but they will offer a warranty on their products if you use their fluid for one year.
I forget the percentages of ethanol in that particular blend but it is easy to come up with by googling.
It is best to get a larger size container to fit in the trunk and keep the system filled there, rather than sacrifice the underhood tank.
I have also read that with properly tuned systems and an increased volume of fluid in the trunk, it is nothing to run 2 or 3 weeks of fluid without worry of running out. Plus these new systems have low fluid warning anyway, so no worries.
If you have the MAF /Mapp controlled system and it is tweeked correctly, you can safely drop pulley sizes and not have any detonation issues.
Yes, the Electronic control systems can be pricey, if you think $400.00 is a lot of money for a properly functioning logic circuit, that keeps combustion temps low. But so does an Intercooler cost a lot, with a lot more labor to install to lower the combustion temps and allow the use of a smaller pulley and increase boost.
There are parts of one MFG that will probably work well with parts from another MFG to make the ideal system, but I don't know anymore. it's been a while since i have done any in depth analysis of the products. Still haven't received any direct feedback from someone who has set up and used a system on a SC 3800.
Still would like to try it out though, would like more personal feedback from people that have done it and not a 'friend of a friend'.

Quote :

Eldo wrote:

Washer fluid?

RickW wrote:

That (washer fluid) is the recommended fluid for water / methanol injection. At least it is the least expensive if you buy it by the case at Wally World.

RickW wrote:

It is best to get a larger size container to fit in the trunk and keep the system filled there, rather than sacrifice the underhood tank.

To me, this is more reason to just tap into the existing washer fluid reservoir. You don't sacrifice anything, because the tank is used for double duty. You may need to refill it more often, depending on how often you use the washers, and go WOT. Honestly, I don't use the washer very often at all. WOT is another matter...

Some info from Devil's Own website. It's for turbo, but principles are the same:

Where to locate your alcohol-water injection nozzle:

Well let's first start with where not to place the nozzle. When placing your water injection nozzle makes sure you do not place the nozzle upstream of a MAF or mass air flow sensor. Fluid running through this sensor can damage these sensors on some particular engines.

Pre-Turbo (pre-blower):

We don't recommend this location at all if you do not have the proper equipment such as the proper nozzle, nozzle size and high pressure pump. Locating the nozzle here is the most controversial location. The majority of alcohol/water injection users do not use this location.

In order to inject pre-turbo without compressor (rotor) damage you need a high quality low volume nozzle and high enough pressure to get the water as finely misted as possible, and the smaller nozzle which allows for smaller/finer water droplets. We recommend you mount the nozzle as close to the compressor as possible.

Pre-Air Intake Temperature Sensor:

Most computer controlled engines have an intake air temperature (IAT) sensor. This sensor monitors the temperature of the air going into the motor. The reason for putting it before the IAT sensor is because it will see the cooler temps and the engine will advance timing, allowing for more power. Also placing the injection nozzle as far from the cylinders/air intake sensor as possible, it allows for the water/methanol mixture to be better absorbed into the intake air charge. This allows for great distribution to each cylinder.

In theory, since the air charge will be mixed for a longer distance, and therefore time, allowing for the moisture to be absorbed by the air, creating the coolest possible air charge going into the cylinders. Water/methanol molecules from a nozzle located here have more time to be absorbed by the intake charge exiting the IC before making it into the combustion chamber.

After Air Intake Sensor

You can usually mount it either before or after the ‘butterfly' and still be after the air intake temperature sensor. The main difference when mounting the injector before or after the butterfly is there is less vacuum before versus after the butterfly when idling or driving in vacuum. Translation, when in vacuum, there is more vacuum after the butterfly than before it. Here is why this is important: If your solenoid is placed very far from the injectors (more than a couple of feet), then the vacuum can actually suck just a little bit of the water/methanol. This small amount of moisture ingestion during vacuum is not a problem.

Intake manifold

This location can be the most complex area to install. Usually requiring that he intake be removed for access. Injecting here is going to yield the largest water/methanol droplets. And with the closer proximity to the combustion chambers is going to provide a larger amount of mixture into the cylinders. Doing this usually requires more fuel from the factory system be removed. This option is best for max cooling.

The water here is being injected in a manner much like port fuel injection and it is the bigger water molecules being injected here that have a more direct effect of in cylinder cooling and injection here has more of an effect of altering the flame front of the combustion charge in a way much like a higher octane fuel. To take full advantage of this nozzle location it is suggested that trimming away some of the factory dumped fuel be done. In other words, in order to take advantage of the better properties of water over fuel for cooling and injecting water at this location, you want to remove the dumped fuel and actually REPLACE this with water. This injection point with a pretty sophisticated WI control method allows for the most advantageous use of water injection. The drawback for nozzles located here is kit/component complexity, install complexity, additional labor, possible machine shop costs, and possible additional parts costs.

Link

Considerations from the above:

- injecting before the MAF sensor could be problematic. This eliminates injector mounting in the intake tube or air box, unless the MAF sensor is relocated.

- using a specialized injector designed for a very fine mist could reduce the chance for damaging supercharger rotor coatings. This might explain why some folks see damage and others don't.

- injecting before the IAT is a good idea, but not possible unless MAFF or IAT sensors are relocated.

- mounting injectors after the butterfly in throttle body requires solenoid be located as close as possible to the injector.

- intake manifold mounting offers the most effective cooling effect, at the expense of more complex installation, and the required fuel tuning to compensate for the large water droplets entering the engine.

Devil's own MAP kit with two injectors for $360: http://www.alcohol-injection.com/2-bar-stage-2-273.html

Interesting facts according to Devil's Own FAQ:

Can alcohol/water injection damage my motor?

Not if installed and used properly. As long as the injection system is working properly, it can only do good things. Since the alcohol will dissolve carbon buildup, It will help keep your plugs, valves, and combustion chambers very clean.

Why not use a windshield washer pump?

Alcohol/water must be injected at above 50psi to properly atomize. Pressure lower than 50psi causes greatly reduced air charge cooling as the result of larger droplets and their reduced total surface area.

What liquid should i run in this system?

We recommend DevilsOwn Brew, our proprietary methanol blend. Not only does methanol improve your fuel quality, it will also give you a better intercooling effect in the inlet tract.

Denatured alcohol can be used but we strongly advise our customers to use methanol for better, more consistent performance.

What is the maximum alcohol/water ratio your system can handle?

The wetted components in the pump head are chemically compatible with 100% methanol and denatured alcohol. Components are engineered to withstand 100% mixtures for the normal expected life of the product. We recommend not running more than 50/50 mix of water and methanol or other alcohol blends, to reduce the risk of fire and improve consistency and performance.

My buddy with the buick ultra ran straight washer fluid. You HAVE to buy the blue -20* f washer fluid. It is very close to the proper mix, and is a cheap way to run meth injection. I had planned on running straight washer fluid and just running a line to the existing washer fluid reservoir, but now im just going to run a 50-75 shot of nitrous through a thrasher tb spacer that is already tapped for nitrous.

Abaddon wrote:

Eldo wrote:

I've heard of 'detergent' gasoline, but this is ridiculous!

Would Southern Comfort work?

TOO Damn expensive in these parts. Not that i would want to start drinking washer fluid though.

Sup guys,
Havent been around for a couple months due to work and school getting real, so my modding plans have been put on hold... but now i want to start in it, therefore i was thinking that meth injection will be my first mod... Injection is one of those simple mods that has no ramifications and is nothing but beneficial... It increases power, efficiency, its only there when needed, and it will be great support for future modding... has anyone else gone this route as a first mod?... and if so, do you have any results to show for it? (times, dyno, etc.)

I don't have any specific experience with meth injection. Where are you putting the injection nozzle? How is it metered? I assume it goes somewhere after the TB or post-supercharger. How do you adjust your tune for this? Timing only? More fuel?

Wouldn't it be easier to convert to E85? (isn't it basically the same thing?)

deekster_caddy wrote:

I don't have any specific experience with meth injection. Where are you putting the injection nozzle? How is it metered? I assume it goes somewhere after the TB or post-supercharger. How do you adjust your tune for this? Timing only? More fuel?

Wouldn't it be easier to convert to E85? (isn't it basically the same thing?)

Its gonna be boost activated, for the time being i wont need to tune for anything, it will be used for just cooling/power for the time being until i order hptuners... Closest e85 is an hour drive, so no lol

And where would you put the injector nozzle?