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Eldo
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 04, 2010 3:09 pm

I believe that "force motor" is another term for main pressure control solenoid.
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 04, 2010 3:10 pm

i use efi live shifting tables to modify... that is all
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 15, 2010 10:53 pm

AA, I randomly came across something that looks strange to me.

Shift Points - Page 2 AAshiftspds-1

Is that how you have yours now with the WOT upshift speeds being less than the end of the normal upshift speeds? I'm sure the PCM is making its own sense out of that but was that a mistake or is there a reason you did it that way?
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 16, 2010 9:55 am

Preface: in my WOT shift table, my 1-2 shift value is 48, not 46. Not a big deal, just pointing it out.

But you are correct, the other values are lower than the max throttle position values. There is a reason for it. You need to consider RPM when upshifting at WOT.

At throttle positions less than 100% (not WOT) the PCM uses the throttle position table, and upshifts based on MPH only. It does not consider the RPM.

But when the PCM upshifts at WOT, it checks two things: RPM & MPH. There is a 1-2 shift RPM value. It will only shift when both values are satisfied. So, if 1-2 shift is set to 5700 RPM, the PCM will upshift only at or above 5700 RPM, and only when the desired shift speed is met (48 mph). If the desired shift speed were higher, say 55 MPH, it is quite possible to exceed 5700 RPM until the car is moving 55 MPH. If your redline is set to 6kRPM, you may bump it - result is a fuel cut, similar to top speed governor.

The reason my MPH is set low for WOT upshifts is because I want those shifts to be determined solely by RPM, not vehicle speed. 48 MPH is low enough that I will always be going faster at the 1-2 shift, so I get a 5700 RPM shift every time. No worries about over-revving, not fuel cut.

It does seems strange in your tables, but you aren't showing the RPM table. In that context, it makes better sense. Hope this helps.


_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles
^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown


Last edited by AA on Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 16, 2010 10:04 am

Reading about the TM table. I think I have this right......
Lowering the TM will get rid of that delay when downshifting? The most I notice it is WOT downshift from 3-2. I can hear it shift into to second, but there is like a 1 second delay before the car really takes off. My shift tables are set where I want them, it's just that delay that bugs me. We didn't play with the TM when we tuned. Only thing we changed were the pressures. Again, I'm happy with the way it shifts, as we have it set for less firm at lower TP angles. Just that stupid delay from 3-2.......
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 16, 2010 10:07 am

I have the same issue, Scott. Not sure if it's TM, but I haven't been able to solve it. It may be a mechanical limitation in the transmission under certain conditions, where the parts just can't engage fast enough. If you can experiment, and find a solution, please share!

_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles
^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 16, 2010 10:11 am

Ah, ok. Glad it's not just me lol. That shift just plain sucks. Hammer the throttle, S/C starts whining like mad, RPS fly up, and the damn thing doesn't go anywhere for a second.......drives me nuts. Next time we get to tune I'll play around a bit. Thanks
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 16, 2010 10:15 am

It could be something in my shift tables, if you are using them. Maybe try defaulting back to stock and see if you can get something that works?

I know this much, there isn't any delay on the 4-2 shift!!! Or the 3-1!!!!!

_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles
^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 16, 2010 10:59 am

AA wrote:
It could be something in my shift tables, if you are using them. Maybe try defaulting back to stock and see if you can get something that works?

I know this much, there isn't any delay on the 4-2 shift!!! Or the 3-1!!!!!

Nope, none at all. No, I'm not using your shift tables. We modified the table of the tune we loaded. The original tune was WAYYY to stiff. Even at lower TP angles it would slam into gear. The one that drove me the most nuts was the 3-4 shift. With no load on the trans it would just SLAM! Either way, someone on here should be able to cure that 3-2 slop suspect
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 16, 2010 11:05 am

I think your modified TCC Solenoid may be to blame for that! Any shift kit installed will also amplify the shifts. Mine's stock and everything is pretty smooth.

_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles
^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 16, 2010 11:54 am

I'll agree with that. We also took that into consideration when we "re-tuned" it. So my shift pressures are lower than those of someone without the modified solenoid. Probably a lil lower than yours. It still tries to jerk the steering wheel out of your hands from 1-2 twisted
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 16, 2010 4:01 pm

Did you lower the shift times as well as increase the shift pressures? Higher pressure is all well and good, but the PCM is also trying to meet a time deadline and may not go to max pressure if the time is being met. Just asking cause I haven't seen you guys mention that area of the shift tables.
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 16, 2010 4:03 pm

Not quite sure, but it certainly shifts wayyyy faster than stock. I think I recall looking at those parameters. As I said though, we modified a pre-set tune, so that table may have been modified already.
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptyMon Aug 16, 2010 4:35 pm

My table has shift times set at .01 secs for all. I assume Scott used this value if he copied my tune.

_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles
^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
charlieRobinson
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 17, 2014 4:45 am

if .01 sec shift values have no ill effect, then why would anyone use any other value here?  ? 
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 17, 2014 8:24 am

charlieRobinson wrote:
if .01 sec shift values have no ill effect, then why would anyone use any other value here?  ? 

They can be a bit firm/uncomfortable for highway cruising and city driving. The best way to go about it is to set them all to .01 then raise them to your liking.
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 17, 2014 10:14 am

AA, are you still using this transmission tune today?
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 17, 2014 12:47 pm

Yes, except for the TCC lock-up values, which have been completely disabled. See link for details:

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t8717-write-up-tuning-trick-for-failing-torque-converter-clutch-tcc-lock-up

I've driven almost 80k miles after shutting down the TCC solenoid. Other than the impact to MPG (a significant one), there are no ill effects. In fact, throttle response in 3rd and 4th gears are superb with no TCC (must install big trans cooler). However, with a working TCC, using the values in this thread would be the optimum set-up. If I ever pull my trans to rebuild again, I'll switch back to the TCC tune above.

As for the shift time values, yes you should use .01 ms - because the shift time values are not literally the times your trans will shift at, a "goal", and not the limiting factor in the grand scheme of things. Fluid pressure and TM values keep the trans shifting more slowly (50 ms is a "fast" shift). Only increase shift time values if you desire a longer shift time than what you're currently seeing.

_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles
^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 17, 2014 1:19 pm

AA, thank you.

Just curious and I might be missing something here but, why do you have 3rd to 4th shifts pasted twice with different values and the top of your list?

Calibration Data/Transmission/Shift Point - Cruise/3rd to 4th:

00.00% = 45 MPH
06.25% = 45 MPH
12.50% = 46 MPH
18.75% = 50 MPH
25.00% = 72 MPH
31.25% = 80 MPH
37.50% = 108 MPH
43.75% = 108 MPH
50.00% = 108 MPH
56.25% = 108 MPH
62.50% = 108 MPH
68.75% = 108 MPH
75.00% = 108 MPH
81.25% = 108 MPH
87.50% = 108 MPH
93.75% = 108 MPH
100.0% = 108 MPH

Calibration Data/Transmission/Shift Point - Cruise/3rd to 4th:

00.00% = 13 MPH
06.25% = 13 MPH
12.50% = 13 MPH
18.75% = 11 MPH
25.00% = 11 MPH
31.25% = 18 MPH
37.50% = 22 MPH
43.75% = 26 MPH
50.00% = 28 MPH
56.25% = 34 MPH
62.50% = 39 MPH
68.75% = 46 MPH
75.00% = 55 MPH
81.25% = 58 MPH
87.50% = 60 MPH
93.75% = 62 MPH
100.0% = 62 MPH
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 17, 2014 1:47 pm

It was a type-o. 2nd group should be: "...Cruise/3rd to 2nd:"

Turns out the Cruise values either aren't read by the PCM, or they can't be changed by DHP. I wasn't able to change the performance of the car in cruise by altering these values, but didn't realize it until after I posted the shift points. No harm, no foul.

_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles
^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 17, 2014 3:17 pm

Works fine in hpt. I had 50 for the 3 to 4 shift and I changed it to 45 but after some testing I think I might lower it to 42ish
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 17, 2014 3:24 pm

That change only works when your cruise control is active, right?

_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles
^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 17, 2014 3:27 pm

It's affecting my shifts under normal throttle. I don't think I was paying attention and I had 50 for the 3 to 4 shift and it was of course too high. I went back to your notes and saw you had 45 which is much better but I think even a little lower will be best. But yes, this just under normal throttle
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 17, 2014 4:34 pm

Those were the cruise tables, so they only affect operation while in cruise control. I could never get them to work.

I don't know what you mean by "50 for the 3 to 4 shift". It's not a single value; it's a series of values that depend on speed and throttle.

_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles
^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
charlieRobinson
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PostSubject: Re: Shift Points   Shift Points - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 17, 2014 5:13 pm

ah, yes. I see now. The difference from the orange and the red on the top of the list.
Cruise vs normal shifts.
I was referring to the cruise tables, but never mind those. I dont have anything in HPT to even alter that table.


But for this little guy... you really like holding out until ~50mph to shift into 4th?
I tested it and didnt like it. I changed it to 45 and it was better but I think i am going to try 42 now.
For daily driving, 50 is just too high, I think. The earlier the shift, the better the MPGs, right? Why did you choose ~50mph to start this shift point?

Calibration Data/Transmission/Shift Point - Normal/3rd to 4th_Normal:

00.00% = 52 MPH
06.25% = 52.5 MPH
12.50% = 56 MPH


But man, with all of AAs settings, everything feels so much more smoother. I love it. I feel like the transmission just gave a huge sigh of relief. Everything feels lighter and 'easier'.

Love it.
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» Amplifier ground points.

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Riv Performance ::   Supercharged 3800 Tech :: Series II Scans, Tuning, PCM-
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