Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors

Alpine emailed me back saying these speakers are omni directional. What does that mean for off axis? I don't know if there is a standard in frequency response per angle as well as db slopes for that angle per frequency for an omnidirectional speaker driver.

Also, how the hell did this guy mount these panels in??

I find if funny that alpine won't tell me anything about these speakers other than dimensions or frequency response.. If Im building a custom panel for it, things like VAS, QTS, volume of driver in cubic inches, exact off axis frequency response and decibel regarding each frequency on the off axis, frequency resonaonce..I could make them sound much better knowing this.

Edit: just read the part a out infinite baffle. I don't get how the door speakers aren't a sealed enclosure. Does that mean if my adapter rings has holes in it that its a good thing so its even less sealed?

The off axis response really has to do more with higher frequency than anything else. Here is a graph of a tweeter just to illustrate what off axis mounting does to the frequency response for this speaker. All speakers have their own "characteristics", but off axis response will be similar. Some speakers will drop off more on the high frequency end, some less, some will start rolling off earlier, some later.


"red" is directly on axis.
"blue" is 30 degrees off axis.
"green" is 60 degrees off axis.


That being said In most installations the off axis response really isn't too bad of a thing. Let me through an example at you.......there is no getting around the fact that in your install the drivers side speaker will be closer to you than the passenger side speaker. This will cause issues in both how soon the sound arrives at your ears from each speaker and how loud each speaker is perceived. The perception of being centered between the left and right speaker can, for the most part, only be affected in two ways. Time alignment (use an audio processor and actually delay the signal going to the left speaker, move the speaker location, or move your seating position) and volume (the higher the frequency the more the difference in speaker distance can be compensated for with volume......left side a little quieter than the right side). Now consider the off axis response. If you install the speakers in the stock locations with no angle the right side speaker will be more on axis to you than the left speaker and by default the right speaker will be slightly louder than the left speaker......at higher frequency anyway. This will also be the case for someone sitting in the passenger seat......the driver side speaker will be more on axis to them.

All that being said. I think you are worrying too much about all of the specs of the driver. The VAS, QTS, and most of the rest of the parameters really don't matter much unless you building an enclosure for the speakers. Which you shouldn't do with these speakers. They are designed to run IB or in other words no enclosure. All that is needed is to separate the environment the front of the speaker plays into (interior of the car) vs the environment the back of the speaker plays into (into the door).

Also do you plan on using a sub? If so any advantage you would gain by using a 6 1/2 over a 5 1/4 would be nullified.

In the end I would just put the speaker in the stock location and not worry about aiming the driver. Just swivel the tweeters in different positions to see what you like the best and call it a day.

Sorry to be long winded.......just trying to help and give my 2 cents.

sqrivi wrote:

The off axis response really has to do more with higher frequency than anything else. Here is a graph of a tweeter just to illustrate what off axis mounting does to the frequency response for this speaker. All speakers have their own "characteristics", but off axis response will be similar. Some speakers will drop off more on the high frequency end, some less, some will start rolling off earlier, some later.


"red" is directly on axis.
"blue" is 30 degrees off axis.
"green" is 60 degrees off axis.


That being said In most installations the off axis response really isn't too bad of a thing. Let me through an example at you.......there is no getting around the fact that in your install the drivers side speaker will be closer to you than the passenger side speaker. This will cause issues in both how soon the sound arrives at your ears from each speaker and how loud each speaker is perceived. The perception of being centered between the left and right speaker can, for the most part, only be affected in two ways. Time alignment (use an audio processor and actually delay the signal going to the left speaker, move the speaker location, or move your seating position) and volume (the higher the frequency the more the difference in speaker distance can be compensated for with volume......left side a little quieter than the right side). Now consider the off axis response. If you install the speakers in the stock locations with no angle the right side speaker will be more on axis to you than the left speaker and by default the right speaker will be slightly louder than the left speaker......at higher frequency anyway. This will also be the case for someone sitting in the passenger seat......the driver side speaker will be more on axis to them.

All that being said. I think you are worrying too much about all of the specs of the driver. The VAS, QTS, and most of the rest of the parameters really don't matter much unless you building an enclosure for the speakers. Which you shouldn't do with these speakers. They are designed to run IB or in other words no enclosure. All that is needed is to separate the environment the front of the speaker plays into (interior of the car) vs the environment the back of the speaker plays into (into the door).

Also do you plan on using a sub? If so any advantage you would gain by using a 6 1/2 over a 5 1/4 would be nullified.

In the end I would just put the speaker in the stock location and not worry about aiming the driver. Just swivel the tweeters in different positions to see what you like the best and call it a day.

Sorry to be long winded.......just trying to help and give my 2 cents.

Okay,how do i figure out the exact angle of the axis for my speakers? I want them to be as efficient as possible at the ears. And Im pretty sure i do need the more efficient, better power handling 6.5 inch speakers with swivel mount tweeters. My sub now completely downs out everything and i have aftermarket door speakers in with alpine 6x9's. I can steal hear the 6x9 speakers but its missing all the crisp treble and midbass that i need to balance out the sub. Id like midbass powerful enough that i can get over 90db from 60-70hz.


My head unit



My sub, only a 400 watt amp no idea bow its this damn loud with only 200 watts going in each driver. Anyway, Im pretty sure ill need more power and better midbass in the door speakers to keep up. This sub pretty much moves my rear view mirror to the point that i have to re adjust it every time i crank it up. I don't get bow bcause these really aren't that good sub drivers.

Corey, I don't think you're getting what sqrivi and I are saying. The fact that woofers have better off-axis response than tweeters (you can see this in Scott's graph) means that you can mount the drivers in the doors and they will sound fine. The tweeters can be aimed, and that's more of a preference thing. There is no absolute correct angle. In fact, if you aimed the drivers directly at your ears, they would likely sound overly bright. They designed them the be mounted in the doors, firing at your legs. The off-axis sound will make it to your ears.

If you want the mid/treble band to be louder, turn up the gains on your amp. 100W x 2 is more than enough power to make the fronts as loud as you need them to blend with your sub. Try filtering the front drivers a little higher than 70Hz. Try 100Hz or 150Hz, or 80Hz with a really steep cut-off slope. The sound will be cleaner, and you'll be able to play the fronts louder.

The sub sounds cleaner at lower frequencies. If i just wanted SPL then id say screw it, but i want clean sound, so my sub is crossed over at around 60hz, i think mechanical roll off makes that 70hz in reality? Not 100% sure on that.

I definitely do not want to filter my speakers above 80hz because sounds above 80Hz are directional, and i don't really ever want a sub to play past 80Hz. Good subs are never heard, because they should sound like its only the speakers playing. :p

The one and only exception to that is if the sub is part of a tower system in the same enclosure as the midbass, with the plate amp integrated and the woofers crossed over correctly. Then again, this is just my opinion.

That would be the reason Bose sound systems sound so bad. The subs have to play past 100Hz to make up for the terrible bass extension on the satellite speakers, and end up making "clunk" sounds way too boomy, but there's more problems than just that with Bose.

And i guess ill just mount them straight. I made a bracket thing out of MDF Im gunna screw into my door and mount the speaker and see how good it sounds before i fiberglass over it. If it sounds good and clean enough then ill duplicate the brackets and fiberglass then make it for the other door panel. The advantage of this is me not messing up my car before i know how good it sounds.

Update: so I actually found and kinda fixed my old MB Quart RAA4200 amp laying around. this amp is a beast of a 4 channel amp and makes my alpine amp sound bad, lol.

This was made when rockford fosgate used to own MB Quart and has awesome build quality. probably over 20 pounds, made out of pretty solid aluminum.






these are the guts, you can tell it's not cheaply made, which I like. Iv'e never actually heard my 6x9 alpines in the back seat before last night, and they sound awesome. with the mbquart amp, my sub doesn't actually overpower them in the back, and they are as clear as I can get any speakers in the back with them mounted in the position they are.


I'm having issues figuring out how this guy mounted his panels in. I've got to re glue my MDF brackets because it got too cold out last night and the glue didn't dry right. if this was more in depth write up, it would be about 20 times easier =/

Okay so here's the bracket iI made, screwed into my door.







And that's the speaker mounted in. Is this a good idea? It sounds great like this, so how would I even fiberglass this so it fits perfectly in the door? Should I cut a big hole for the bracket to fit through then fiberglass over the stock panel and apply release agent, then stretch the fabric over everything, glue to the MDF and use strong clips to hold the fabric stretched over the stock speaker panel, then when it cures, pry it off and screw the new fiberglass panel in? Its the only thing I could think of to mount this in the door.

Or am I doing it wrong? This guy never even said how the hell he mounted it in the door

You gotta resize those images, or else use the Image Size Code before you embed.

I think you have the right idea with your adapter rings. Personally, I would mount the tweeter on the other side of the woofer, around 1-2 o'clock position, angled up like you are thinking. The stock tweeter location leaves a lot to be desired, imo.

My bad. I uploaded it on my phone lol. Ill fix it on my computer later.

EDIT:

I put up thumbnails instead. I'm thinking I should probably fiberglass the initial shape with the entire panel on the door, then once it cures, unscrew my MDF brackets and take out the stock plastic panel, and use it for the release mold of the second door., then sand, paint and finish the panel once removed.

the problem with this I see is how am I going to secure the panel to the door properly and keep the retention on the fabric in the correct shape while it cures? do they have any metal retaining clips strong enough to essentially act like a super duty paper clip on the edge of the mold so I can make the fabric stay stretched until I pop out the plastic panel of the mold?

I don't expect much help at this point, and it's almost like this write up is just a proof of concept. the primary function of my design is to eliminate vibrations from my subwoofer, that if there is anything loose in my car, it will rattle. even though my subs are crappy and only 200 watts RMS going into each driver,.

EDIT AGAIN:

I may just put a hole somewhere in my upper door panel or dash for the tweeters, and use the retention clips near the stock tweeter to hold the stock speaker panel mold down and at first let the fabric have a little slack then push the panel in, maybe glue it in place with not very strong glue and clamp it, keeping the fabric stretched, then once the glue dries, take off the clamp, and start fiberglassing over the panel and let it pop out once it cures. This seems like the best possible way to keep the fiberglass panel fitting inside the stock panel location possible to me. I'd like any advice if someone has any to offer to make this easier or better quality as this will be my first ever fiberglass creation.

looking back, already, I'm pretty sure custom fiberglass sub boxes are easier to make than this, because you don't have to worry about proprietary mounts and holes to make something that should be easy a lot harder. Very bad idea for a first fiberglass project >_>

UPDATE:

project is going slower than I thought, but I decided to re finish my interior, and make it black instead as well, and decided to move the tweeters to ear level, for a better overall sound.



Taking door panels off, re gluing any cracked or broken parts and painting panels and making vinyl black.




pretty, silk domes is pretty!




I made a quick photo edit on my phone to illustrate where I am going to relocate the tweeters. I don't have the pilot drill bit to even drill with the hole saw right now lol. gotta get it tomorrow at
Lowes :/




This being the beat up, 15 year old car that it is, the door panel was cracked with 4inch+ cracks in over 5 places, even more other cracks, random chunks missing out of the door and clips broken off. I might end up ordering a new door panel later in the future if this gorilla glue doesn't help as much as I'd like. I had to clamp pretty odd places lol.


next phase and what I'm working on, sanding and priming panels and prepping for paint. I'll update later, but I might as well make my own write up at this point, but for some reason my topic got merged here.

Here is the panel with the swivel mount silk dome, nearly at ear level. it just barely fits. I think it's a great spot, but others might not agree.

panel has first coat of primer and will have more coats, then at least 5-10 coats of satin black, sanded in between each coat.



me in mad scientist mode in my soviet Russia hoodie, cold as shit and windy out.

also, I ended up visiting a professional audio shop about 30 miles away and found plastic bracket rings that are perfect for an idea I had after seeing them. I will use dowel rods connecting the 5.25 to 6.5 inch adapter to the door panel, fiberglass over it, then cut out the plastic crap where the original speaker mounts are, from the back of the door panel, and creat a new mount to apply and remove the fiberglass panel. molding shape should be flawless like this, and all I have to do is adjust the angle of the rods and then sand it using sandpaper on top of my glass mouse pad to get a perfect flat angle once i get the right height. this will tilt the speaker perfectly.

also, for some reason, the vinyl paint seems to peel off on some spots and it seems it wont even scratch off others, but everything feels squishy like vinyl. what's up with that?it makes no sense to me. I'll need to rip out my console, repaint that satin black, my dash, other door panels, probably dye my carpeting, and dye my leather seats black after I use a repair kit on the front for the rips. accent trims and panels will be metallic grey.



this will be wood trim and accent panel color.



this will be plastic interior panel color, but it's not finished and needs more coats of paint. I was just testing the color out.



this was when I went overboard sanding the hell out of the Krylon satin black spray paint past 3000 grits, and there is no clear coat. it's just spray paint over primer. I think I want my car to actually be this color!!

how would I get a paint this color but hard enough to be automotive paint? and could I just use like 10-15 cans of krylon satin black and find some really hard semi gloss clear coat and sand the clear coat to make it look like that?

or am I better off buying an air compressor, spray gun, automotive paint, and hard top coat or whatever? can someone link me to cost effective, cheap if possible paint that will be as close to that panel as possible, and some semi gloss clear coat that is is hard as possible but not too pricey? if I can find a facility, I'll repaint the bitch myself, learning from my screw ups if I have to. I'm not paying 4 grand for a damn paint job when I can figure out how to do it myself.

First off,you have to hit the plastic parts with adhession promoter.if you dont ,that Krylon paint will start to crack all to shit. if a solid black is what youre after,then you should look into Krylon plastic paint . but SEM is better.and you dont want a HARD coat of paint for plastic,rather a flexible one.plastic bends!
you should not use enamel for interior pieces,you should be using urethane or paints specificaly made for interiors that are not alot more expensive than a can of Krylon.
it looks like you have really laid on the coats of color.unnecessary if the piece is properly prepped and sanded down a bit and then sprayed with the A.H,a couple of coats for coverage is all you need.
If you are not clear coating,unnecessary if you use an interior auto paint,you dont have to use 3000 grit paper. save the money for other things.to prep the pieces you dont really need anything higher than say 400.3000 is rarely used any way.mostly it's to sand down a clear coat.
get your self a cheap compressor somewhere and a cheap HVLP spray gun from Harbour freight.You will do a better job.after investing in all those cans you will have spent allmost as much.and you will have learned how to use a spray gun.
and as far as finding links to get product,just type into ypur search engine,CHEAP AUTO PAINTS, and youll get to where you need to be.
and finally,your first coat of paint should be a very light one.dont gob it on. the second coat will cover nicely.if you need a third coat make is a nice wet coat but dont allow it to run.
Materials-
addhesion promoter
plastic parts cleaner and degreaser
350 to 400 grit paper. 600 if youre being really fussy.600 to 2000 and up are exterior grade paper.
did I leave anything out?probably.but you get the idea.

oh yeah, that first panel was a disaster because it was like 35 degrees out, and it wouldn't paint right. and great advice!

do they have a metallic grey like that for plastics? and would trim paint be ideal, or should I try to find flat black or satin black plastic paints?

I wanted the hard paint for my car by the way, lol.can I get adhesion promoter at a local store like wall mart or lowes? and do I need to put on the adhesion promoter before the primer? and I'm guessing I need plastic specialized primer? I had no idea about the adhesion promoter lol


I still don't get why the vinyl is super solid on some parts and flaking off on other parts of the vinyl.

for auto paint, I'd fix dents somehow, bodyfill anything I can't easily fix, then sand with 400, then 600 grit, then automotive primer, then base coat, clear coat, then finish it off from 1000 grit to 3000, then compound or polish it?

most important part is do I need adhesion promoter before the primer? no idea if I should sand all the primer off that panel I just primed

TYPE IN SEARCH BAR- TCPGLOBAL.COM
look through their catalog,especially INTERIOR PAINTS. the site will make all kinds of suggestions for products that you will need.
dont be skeered just let your fingers do the walkin!
good luck

Thanks for the link, I'll keep it in mind for when I decide to repaint the exterior.

and I guess I'll sand off the primer on the panels which is currently automotive primer I had lying around, and I'll grab Krylon fusion, plastic primer, that adhesive thingy, maybe tack cloth (iv'e been using an eye glass microfiber cloth to wipe off, using solvents, making sure it's clean.) and re paint everything, I'll try to find the metallic color if I can.


there are dents and craters in my 15 year old plastic panels, so I oversprayed the hell out of it using primer after a couple coats, and sanded down the high spots using like 320 grit, then an all around sand with 600l. is that a bad idea to do with special plastic primer, or should I use bodyfiller to do that? someone told me that bodyfiller won't work on plastic.
looks like I wasted a lot of time, lol.

correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't vinyl paint actually chemically change the vinyl itself to be a different color instead of just a top coat? I don't understand how it could just flake off of what seems is vinyl.

The paints I'm talking about designed for interiors are very flexible. most are solvent based.
if you rest your hand on a panel sprayed with enamel it will crack.



I thought we were going to do the search thingy?

Hey, I did search the site, and it seems they don't have any satin black automotive paintsalso, thank for tthe video. Maybe I prepped the vinyl wrong, not too sure.

I seriously hate ordering things on the internet though. Just don't trust it. I'd rather get my supplies local if possible, but that might not be a possibility.

Does plastic primer work for fiberglass? Since resin is pretty much plastic.

And by the way do you mean Tue paint will imeddiately peel off or after a long time? I've flexed and bent the hell out of that shiny panel in satin black. The can doesn't say enamel so I have no idea what ttype of paint it is. It seems to chip pretty easily from my nail though, so ill use plastic paints.

I guess ill use the krylon later for something else, but if it chips that easy, I'm thinking its useless for me. If I paint an MDF speaker with it, within a year of use its messed up.

By the way, it felt rubbery when my nail damaged the paint. It more put a gouge in the pain rather than flaking off.

Quote :

I seriously hate ordering things on the internet though. Just don't trust it. I'd rather get my supplies local if possible

Sometimes I find what I'm looking for locally, write down the brand and item #, then order online. Takes the guesswork out of it, and can save you some money - if you aren't in a big hurry.

AA wrote:

Quote :

I seriously hate ordering things on the internet though. Just don't trust it. I'd rather get my supplies local if possible

Sometimes I find what I'm looking for locally, write down the brand and item #, then order online. Takes the guesswork out of it, and can save you some money - if you aren't in a big hurry.

Yeah, but I've had way too many packages get lost in the mail. And I like buying what I can hold <_<

By the way, I sanded down one of the plastic panels to the bare plastic. In the deep scratch and gouge spots, I can't get the primer out. Will this mess up the bonding with the Krylon fusion paint if its automotive primer? Should I keep sanding deeper and deeper or soak it in paint thinner or what? And how do I fill the deep gouges with something like body filler to make a like new paint job?

I need to repaint the vinyl, and that third hole will be the tweeter mount.

This will be the new color of my interior.

MDF might have been better to use than the wood you did it would be lighter putting less weight on the door panel just a suggestion for the next person.