ticking noise, scuffed valve spring retainers

I became aware of a light ticking noise after I installed headers not very long ago. I presumed this noise to be the headers gaskets or the crossover leaking for one reason or another since I didn't notice it until after that install.

After some more investigation, I'm really thinking this ticking is coming from under the valve cover, particularaly in the forward side of the motor.

I just pulled the valve cover off a little while ago to inspect everything and I saw that the valve spring retainers are looking pretty rough. Some of them look a little worse than others but I don't remember my stock ones looking like this when I took them out. The scuffing is all around the the top of the retainer and maybe on the inside taper too. I didn't wipe them clean to check thoroghly though.

I put those retainers in along with the cam I did last July - about 1 year and give or take 18,000 miles ago. My components are as follows: xp cam, compcams OE lifters, zzp clearanced retainers, HD retainer locks, 105lb springs, intense stock length non OR pushrods, all reaplaced together and all new parts.

I did the the install with the motor out and all by the book 100% and have had no noticable running issues with the motor.

Any ideas with this???

I forgot to take pictures with the valve cover off. sorry

have you had any overheating issues lately?

Are you using stock rocker arms?
It sounds like there is not enough clearance and the rockers are hitting the retainers.
Pull valve cover again and rotate crank and watch the rocker and valves.
Could be the valve spring height is too high and the spring seats need clearance machining and valve stem height needs to be checked.
Or try roller rockers for more clearance. May need to pull heads to have machine shop check out all clearances, heights, and spring tensions. As valve seats wear the spring height increases as does the the valve stem height.

What retainers did you use? Did you just replace the retainers, or springs too? Did you check the front manifold/header bolts to the head and make sure they are all tight?
When you put the header in, did you remove the stud on the far right (rear) that sticks out that prevented my plog from seating all the way? I hadn't even noticed it's presence when I put the plog in, and onlyd discovered that I ended up crushing the plog flange into that stud (right behind the #5 exhaust bolts) when I took the plog out a year and a half later. That could be responsible for a ticking...

All very good ideas to look for Turt!

robotennis61 wrote:

have you had any overheating issues lately?

no, there is no noticable symptom other than presumably this noise

Quote :

="deekster_caddy"]What retainers did you use? Did you just replace the retainers, or springs too? Did you check the front manifold/header bolts to the head and make sure they are all tight?
When you put the header in, did you remove the stud on the far right (rear) that sticks out that prevented my plog from seating all the way? I hadn't even noticed it's presence when I put the plog in, and onlyd discovered that I ended up crushing the plog flange into that stud (right behind the #5 exhaust bolts) when I took the plog out a year and a half later. That could be responsible for a ticking...

I used zzp's clearance-modded steel retainers and cc 105lb springs (that's recommended and optionally sold with the cam)

All bolts to front headers tight and i checked all the way around the flange with a mirror and feeler gauge and it seems perfect with no carbon tracking or anything. I didn't remove any stud when I put the headers in though. I tried to see what you,re talking about and couldn't see anything. This is definitely on the front you're talking about right?

Quote :

="Rickw"]Are you using stock rocker arms?
It sounds like there is not enough clearance and the rockers are hitting the retainers.
Pull valve cover again and rotate crank and watch the rocker and valves.
Could be the valve spring height is too high and the spring seats need clearance machining and valve stem height needs to be checked.
Or try roller rockers for more clearance. May need to pull heads to have machine shop check out all clearances, heights, and spring tensions. As valve seats wear the spring height increases as does the the valve stem height.

I am using my original rockers with about 170k at install and about 188k now. Getting machine work on the heads is definitely out of the question for me right now.


Chris suggests It might be because I didn't clean out the rocker bolt holes and that didn't let them torque correctly, which would explain why some are visually a little worse than others. At some point in the near future, I may get a set of arp rocker bolts, a new set of retainers, and a lower mile set of rockers, as Chris also recommended.

Chris Kemp?

turtleman wrote:

deekster_caddy wrote:

What retainers did you use? Did you just replace the retainers, or springs too? Did you check the front manifold/header bolts to the head and make sure they are all tight?
When you put the header in, did you remove the stud on the far right (rear) that sticks out that prevented my plog from seating all the way? I hadn't even noticed it's presence when I put the plog in, and onlyd discovered that I ended up crushing the plog flange into that stud (right behind the #5 exhaust bolts) when I took the plog out a year and a half later. That could be responsible for a ticking...

I used zzp's clearance-modded steel retainers and cc 105lb springs (that's recommended and optionally sold with the cam)

All bolts to front headers tight and i checked all the way around the flange with a mirror and feeler gauge and it seems perfect with no carbon tracking or anything. I didn't remove any stud when I put the headers in though. I tried to see what you,re talking about and couldn't see anything. This is definitely on the front you're talking about right?

yeah, it's on the front. I didn't even know it was there until I took the Plog off. It is to the 'rear' of the #5 exhaust outlet, kind of under the thermostat. It's just off to the right side of the exhaust port, about two or 3 inches over from the last header bolt. It was used to hold a heat shield in place I think.

When you say scuffed up, where is the scuffing. At the inner part by the valve lock or at the outter edges?

Either way the rocker shoul push on the valve, not the retainer. If the rocker pushed the retainer only, the locks would pup out.

I'm in agreement about pulling the cover and having a buddy rotate the motor by hand while you watch and look with a mirror for any clearance issues. Although your have a very common grouping of parts and shouldn't see any issues from it. While the valve cover is off, look at the inside of it for any points of contact.

I haven't decided for 100% sure yet but I may get a set of new manley retainers (comparable to my current zzp retainers by compcams but supposedly better) and a set of new YT 1.6RR from intense.

This noise is really getting on my nerves. It sounds kinda like an exhaust leak from outside the car and I've put way too much energy into doing it right and clean to be hearing shit like that all the time. It makes a sweet car seem like it's broken or not maintained.

I'm positive it didn't make this noise after I put in the cam/lifters/rods/etc. It has since come about for some reason I still don't have anything but thin ideas for.

I will take a close look at what's happening to the retainers before I take it apart but I have a feeling it won't be that obvious.


So far some possible explainations are:
*rocker bolts didn't torque correctly due to not cleaning out the bolt hole
*valve seats have worn enough that the stems & retainers are sitting higher than they are supposed to and are nicking the rockers - that would suck but it's much more believable to me than the rocker bolt idea
*something to do with wear on stock rockers (approching 190k mi at this point)

any other ideas?


I'm postponing some much wanted mods like a p&p gen v or a full IC setup to handle this and I at least want this to work out well since i'm spending some cash and not really gaining any power to speak of.

Hit your ocal Sears and buy a mechanic's stethescope. I did and it allows you to touch near each area and listen specifically to where noises come from.

You can actually hear air being pulled into the TB. You will be able to listen to each exhaust port etc. If the noise is retainers etc, you should hear it easily.

Are you saying do this with the motor running or while the cover is off and being turned? If it's outside the motor with the valve cover on, I don't see how I'd be able to tell where it's coming from, inside..

I'll get one and check it out though.

Other sources could be the headers themselves (under throttle), or the injectors like to tick sometimes. Try removing your SC belt and see if you can hear it any better.

Covers on should do fine. You can audibly hear the noise which means it'll be plenty loud with the stethescope. You should be able to touch the valve cover and the lim/head/exhaust and find the loudest point.

If it's the rockers then you should hear it at the VC's and maybe on the nead nearby. Then if you did pull a VC, you could touch the rocker bolt and that should be extremely loud.

I used a stethescope on it running and I'm not so sure i've found anything more. No area on the valve cover sounded really unusual or loud to me. The noise I picked up by putting the stethescope to the primaries actually sounded a little more like it but I'm still not confident about it at all. I very closely inspected the around the header flange and everything and there is no evidence at all of any leak there. I have a set of new felpro L36 exhaust gaskets laying around but I really don't think those are bad.

I ordered the 1.6 YT RR from intense as well as a new set of manley clearanced retainers. Those RR are out of stock and need to be backorered and will take about 3 weeks for me to have them. That didn't surprise me too much. ZZP said that right on the page. Intense called me after I placed the order. I'm going to replace the retainers and rocker bolts for sure. My rockers have a lot of miles on them and I'll probably just put those RR on while I'm going through the trouble. The retainers are the harder part.

Being that these RR need a longer pushrod, I suspect they may sit farther away from the retainer anyway which would make this sort of problem impossible to happen again. I don't know how they compare though because I haven't seen a RR next to a stock for this motor.

You might want to consider putting the car on a rack somewhere that you can leave it overnight or jack it up really high on some stands. Then when the engine is cold get under there, have someone start the car and try and see if you can locate the noise from underneath the car. That might help to rule out an exhaust leak. Right after you start the engine for a minute or so before it gets hot you can use your hand to feel to see if there is an exhaust leak.
Exhaust leaks can be very tricky and hard to pinpoint.

Bert

Those are some reference pics of what comes with Yella Terra's roller rocker package and how they come together. I got their 1.61 set from intense as well as a new set of retainers, manley retainers to replace my zzp (compcams) ones.

I still plan to do some very close examination of whats on right now before I put these on.

Ok I did my best at taking pictures of what this all looks like. As you can see, 1 or 2 of them are pretty much perfect and then these others are pretty knarly. As you can see, it's on the outter slope and in the inside area to varying degrees. I'm still scratching my head because there is no evidence of contact on the bottom of the rocker I took off.

now onto the second issue...







That new retainer sure looks pretty small to me...



roller rocker on the left, stock on the right

In the 4th picture(the one where you can see the oil dipstick) it looks just like something is protruding in between the coils of the valve spring, keeping the spring from compressing.

Its probably just an optical illusion.
Thanks for posting all the pics, they help people like me get more familiar with what must be done to perform the mods.

Bert

Seems obvious to me that the rocker arm made contact. Even if you don't see wear to the rocker, I say they touched. To your knowledge, what are the rockers and retainers made of?

They are both steel

But they are obviously of different temper.
Different grades of steel and heat treatment.
The Rockers are quite different in composition than the Retainers I would imagine. They would most likely be quite different based on their function and your experience with rockers showing no signs of hitting the retainers.

Could it be the retainers somehow get loose at some point during the stroke, making chatter? Maybe they are able to move under operation but not while you're observing them still. Could run the engine with cover off and watch a fresh retainer to see what happens.

Could be, and maybe more so with weak springs.
They couldn't move much more than rotating though or else there would be a chance of the keepers popping out, which hasn't happened yet.
His obviously show signs of the retainers rotating because they are scored 360* around the retainer.

I'd guess the rotation is somewhat normal since they are not keyed?