ZZP 1.9:1 Ratio Modified Rockers

AA wrote:

Are you absolutely sure these are in fact 105# CC Springs?

They were brand new in the CC Box.

I bought the Rocker Arms from Oldsman.
Enrique did you have any issues with installation of these rockers??

oldsman105 wrote:

I installed zzp 1.9 modifed rockers with stock retainers + 105 springs on my 96. It worked just fine.

Sorry, I missed this post completely.
These are the same rockers, bought them from you when you dismantled the Riv.
You say you had no problems. That's reassuring.
How many miles did you run them and what size SC pulley were you running if you can remember.?

Were all the rockers hitting or how many did you see it happen to? The valve was closed when you torqued it/them right? I would probably just swap back in the stock retainers. The retainers are supposed to give you about .030" of clearance to the valve stem seal. since, 1.9 rockers make a lift just under .500", there's no clearance issue there. Seat pressure would be the only possible concern and it sounds like it's been done more than once before without a problem. If you feel like it, you could get a double roller timing set for it and it would be pretty much bullet proof.

Can you retain the balance shaft with a double roller?

Only saw it on the first two valves (one cyl) After installing the first two and then rotating the crank to position the next cylinder for swap is when the clearance issue was very noticeable. The rocker arms were hitting the retainers at least .010 before the tip would touch the valve stem. Rotated several times and waited for possible lifter bleed down but still were hitting.
Decided at that time to go ahead and change to using the stock retainers to see how they fit and all was OK.
Didn't give it any more thought until I finished up the job, then began to consider the possible issues with using the stock retainers.
The comments from Zooomer bothered me, but Oldsman said he ran the same rockers with the same spring tension and stock retainers without a problem. So I don't know what I'm going to do yet.
I still might pull a set from the front (easy) bank and take a much closer look and do some measuring.
I'll have to look into the heavier duty chain and tensioner idea, it sure would give me piece of mind. I only have 100K on this engine and would like to get at least another 100k out of it safely.
Can you recommend where I should look for timing chains, Brand name suggestions, Etc.

AA wrote:

Can you retain the balance shaft with a double roller?

no

IIRC, you can just remove the balance shaft gear and leave the shaft in place. I know Ewolfe did it that way. You also need to give a hair more clearance to the front cover, particularaly the oil pump. You can get a machined cover fairly inexpensively or you can do the double gasket trick. Doing this is not terribly difficult or expensive but still around $200 (timing parts, fluids, gaskets, etc) if you can't get a deal on the timing setup from someone.

Can anyone recommend a particular brand of timing chain components that may have a better reputation than others and where to buy from.?

Rick, I really think the double roller is overkill for what you are trying to accomplish. I went with the RollMaster single from ZZP for $99 - still need to install. The stock chain is good for 200k miles at least. The RollMaster is even better. I can't imagine it not outlasting the engine. Double roller is for serious cammed applications, when using 130#+ valve springs.

Rickw wrote:

I'll have to look into the heavier duty chain and tensioner idea, it sure would give me piece of mind. I only have 100K on this engine and would like to get at least another 100k out of it safely.
Can you recommend where I should look for timing chains, Brand name suggestions, Etc.

The really nice thing about the double roller setup, especially in your case, is that the tensioner is practically optional. Plenty have run it without a tensioner at all and I know I read at least one of the venders saying it's not a bad idea to keep it anyway. Either way though, the most questionable component is no longer too important.

Rollmaster and JP both make double rollers for us. I wouldn't say one's better than the other and they are practically the same price. I have a JP single and I was very happy with the fit & finish of it. I think they both have the same style degree indicators and stuff. If turbocharged400sbc chimes in, I know he's got tons of experience with these timing sets.

AA wrote:

Rick, I really think the double roller is overkill for what you are trying to accomplish. I went with the RollMaster single from ZZP for $99 - still need to install. The stock chain is good for 200k miles at least. The RollMaster is even better. I can't imagine it not outlasting the engine. Double roller is for serious cammed applications, when using 130#+ valve springs.

I agree. The single sprockets and chain are more than sturdy enough for the worst case scenario here but I would be worried about the tensioner. I don't know what happens if that fails but If it were me, I think I'd be having nighmares about loosing the chain.

I've read that you can run the single RollMaster with or without the tensioner. I haven't decided which route I'm going to take.

AA,
Where have you read that. Any tech info on a chain without tensioner would be appreciated.

I think in the installation instructions. I'll have to check.

Well, I finally put the 3.4 MPS on it and went for an easy drive.
Only accelerated up to 3,000 RPM for now. What a noticeable difference.
Tomorrow I'll get the scanner and monitor KR and take it up on the highway and see what it will do up to about 5,000 RPM.
Then I have to get some PCM tuning done.
Already feel the need for bigger / wider tires.
Sounds good for now at least. we'll see what all the spring tension does to the timing chain ? Will probably plan on replacing that soon, just as a feel good.

AA wrote:

I've read that you can run the single RollMaster with or without the tensioner. I haven't decided which route I'm going to take.

I thought the singles were always run with tensioners. I replaced my tensioner when I originally installed the timing set and replaced again when I did the cam because the contact surface was worn. It seemed like a lot of wear for a relatively short amount of time but then I figured 1 - it's probably supposed to bed with the shape of the chain to some extent because it looked just like my original one and 2 - maybe the tension of the new timing set is a little tighter to begin with. Although I wasn't expecting it and therefore wasn't looking for it then, I didn't think the new timing set seemed that much tighter than the original as far as the slack in the chain goes. This was a while ago and my memory isn't the best.

Thanks everyone for input and help on this issue.
I really appreciate it.
Rick

ive thought about replacing my rockers too. its a good thing that ours are non adjustable. this makes instalation easy. but, wont the gas mileage go way up? and does one have to buy new springs? what would happen if you ran just the new rockers with stock springs?

Sorry I missed all the fun Rick, was a very busy day at work and I'm just getting caught up.

You should not run a double roller chain for that setup. IIRC any aftermarket chain (speed pro, sealed power, trw, etc) is fine.

robotennis, this won't really affect gas milage one way or the other. If anything it will decrease slightly because you can flow more air (and thus more fuel) at WOT. You can run rockers on the stock springs, but you are just asking for valve float, as the valves have more travel to do, and your stock springs are already pretty worn. Don't risk it.

Quote :

Only accelerated up to 3,000 RPM for now. What a noticeable difference.

If you think that was noticeable, you'll be blown away once you go above 4,000 RPM. It's a killer mod!

AA,
Did you happen to find any paper on running the single chain without a tensioner. ?

Rick, I don't have the paper nearby. It is possible I misinterpreted the following info from ZZP:

"The Rollmaster has a much tighter fit, so the timing chain tensioner is no longer used."

They don't specifically say which chain, but in context they probably meant the double roller. I think it's best to run the tensioner anyway. Better to have it there and not need it, imo. That's how I will be installing mine.

FWIW I've been running these rockers on stock springs for 3k miles with no issues and 5500/5700rpm shift points.

Agree, if you're not shifting past 6k RPM, stock springs should be fine. ZZP says this in the product description.

In hindsight i wish i just made my life easier and put the Rockers on without changing springs, But, Oh well, what's done is done.
I took it out today with the scanner, and the 3.4 pulley, and ran it through various types of driving while checking for KR.
The only spike of KR I got was 2* when cruising at highway speed 65-70mph and punching it to pass. As it downshifted from 4th with TCC engaged to 3rd I'm getting a very quick spike. That's the only time i recorded any KR and as I said I drove it for a couple of hours in all kinds of conditions. No KR during hard acceleration and upshifts only that one spot during downshift.