Riviera floating to left on braking?

I've got a weird one guys. Another problem has cropped up on my Riviera. In addition to shuddering/vibrating at highway speed I seem to be experiencing a type of body float when applying the brakes moderately or hard and slowing to a stop. What happens is the car seems to float to the left side, with the back trailing the front slightly. It's almost like you're sliding to the left on ice. I feel absolutely nothing pulling as far as the steering wheel goes. It's almost like the body is going to the left but the wheels are going straight. Could be a bad body mount, bad strut brace, or something else. It's kinda scary and just started doing It. I do notice some clunking when turning, but I've attributed that to the sloppy steering knuckle. I also have that dreaded shudder at highway speed. Not sure If all these are related or what. Any input would greatly be appreciated. Looks like I'll be bringing the car back to the shop. *sigh*

things to check:

sway bars
sway bar end links
struts
wheel bearings
tie rods (inner/outer)
control/trailing arms and bushings
lateral arms
and tires, they could be cupped

for the highway vibration it will most likely be the wheel bearings and/or tires
for your pulling situation it could be any of those, but with the fact that you have highway speed vibration jack the front end up and give it a shakedown, especially between 12 and 6.

First, check the tire pressure. That will cause it for sure. Next look at tire tread for wear - uneven could indicate an alignment issue. If it's only happening when braking, it could mean the front calipers need rebuilt. Inspect pads for uneven wear. Brake hoses have been known to clog and affect the pressure delivery if the fluid is really old. I'd start with the tires and then move to the calipers.

Sounds like you may have a rear caliper frozen - if one side is not applying at all it might react the way you describe. I've been having the opposite problem - I am about to replace my RR caliper for the 4th time in 4 months. (and I haven't driven the car for one of those months!

GMFreak8 wrote:

I've got a weird one guys. Another problem has cropped up on my Riviera. In addition to shuddering/vibrating at highway speed I seem to be experiencing a type of body float when applying the brakes moderately or hard and slowing to a stop.

Usually this is a sign that your pads are low, Id check them first. The shuttering could be a worn or warped rotor. You should pull your tires off and inspect your brakes and rotors. If they are good, you might want to move on to the above suggested areas.

why is everyone saying brakes? the OP said he had shudder/vibration at highway speed, not while braking. this indicates tires or wheel bearings, brakes dont affect anything when theyre not being applyed. i also say this because he said along with the shudder he has a pull to one side while braking, he didnt say anything about a shudder/vibration while on the brakes. worn tires/bad wheel bearings/or tie rods can also pull to the side while braking, along with brakes, but he said the shudder was at speed while not braking and then pulls while braking. to me that says just about anything but brakes...

Quote :

why is everyone saying brakes?

It can be assumed that pulling left during braking is the main focus in this thread. First clue is the topic subject line: "Riviera floating to left on braking?"

Second clue is the 3rd sentence of the topic's first post: "In addition to shuddering/vibrating at highway speed I seem to be experiencing a type of body float when applying the brakes moderately or hard and slowing to a stop."

This indicates the shuddering was already a known issue; the real focus is the "body float" when applying the brakes. All further information after this points to the braking issue as the relevant topic of the thread.

We also mention the brakes because many of us have had the exact problem the OP has, over many years of driving; our experiences have lead us to find the brakes are often the problem that causes these symptoms.

Thanks guys for the replies. Yes the shudder at highway speeds is a separate issue. It's an ongoing issue that hasnt disappeared since I got the car.

As far as the thread goes, my main concern is the floating while braking. It's kinda scary. It doesn't seem like I've lost any braking ability though. Along with the floating I do have a clunking sound and sometimes a popping sound coming from the front while turning. It sounds louder on the passenger side but also happens on the drivers side.

I just got two new timken wheel bearings about 1000 miles ago. Along with that I had new rotors and brakes installed about 20000 miles ago. Also got new struts and shocks at the same time. Got all new tires as well.

If I could figure out what the vibration at highway speed is, and solve this issue with the clunking and floating I would be golden.

Would a car in need of a front end alignment cause shaking and the car to pull to the left when braking? I think mine is in need of it. My steering wheel has to be turned about 15 degrees to the left of center to go straight ahead and I constantly seem to have to fight with it to keep it from wandering to the right. That wouldn't explain the clunking though.

You've checked tire pressure? Yes, bad alignment could cause the car to pull - it could also cause the wheel to be off. The vibration is likely wheels out of balance. If your alignment is off, your tires can wear on the inside or outside edges, throwing off the wheel balance over time.

AA wrote:

You've checked tire pressure? Yes, bad alignment could cause the car to pull - it could also cause the wheel to be off. The vibration is likely wheels out of balance. If your alignment is off, your tires can wear on the inside or outside edges, throwing off the wheel balance over time.

Yup. All within normal range and within 1 psi of each other.

That's gotta be part of my problem. I'm thinking I have a few as usual. Tomorrow I have time so i will see if I can get into the alignment shop here. They specialize in brakes and alignments.

I seriously can't win.

Your shudder issue may be what my problem is.....I found out eventually that one of my wheels is out of round. Not bent, like a bend on the edge that you can see, it's oblong from the outer edge to the inner edge, width wise. It took me forever to find it, but with a timing light and a wheel balancer, I got it. I have deal with it as I can't afford new wheels. It only does it above 70mph....

...and yes, a bad alignment will cause a "pull" while braking. But then again, so will a messed up caliper. Hope the shop you take it to figures it out....

The clunk you have could be a lot of things. I read that you mentioned a steering coupler. The only "coupler" we (Rivs) have is in the intermediate shaft, which connects the rack to the column. I've never had one go bad on a Riv, but I've replaced a ton of them on Grand Prix's. If you believe it to be this, you would hear it and feel it in the steering wheel while turning, and if it's worn enough, you would sometimes hear it at initial braking.....Start with the wheel straight, and turn it all the way to the right, you'll hear a "pop". Now get the car rolling and let the wheel straighten itself....it will "pop" again. Same thing for turning left. If you've ever had to replace the intermediate shaft, you won't want to do it again....it's not fun.

I'm thinking it might just be an unbalanced wheel. The vibration went away for a awhile when I bought the tires and now it has returned.

I hope so too regarding the pull.

As far as the steering goes that's exactly what it does, but its not all the time. Seems to happen randomly. If you move the wheel slightly from side to side from off center it will also always exhibit a clunking that you can feel. I notice it randomly does this on take off too if turning just the right way.

Abaddon wrote:

Your shudder issue may be what my problem is.....I found out eventually that one of my wheels is out of round. Not bent, like a bend on the edge that you can see, it's oblong from the outer edge to the inner edge, width wise. It took me forever to find it, but with a timing light and a wheel balancer, I got it. I have deal with it as I can't afford new wheels. It only does it above 70mph....

...and yes, a bad alignment will cause a "pull" while braking. But then again, so will a messed up caliper. Hope the shop you take it to figures it out....

The clunk you have could be a lot of things. I read that you mentioned a steering coupler. The only "coupler" we (Rivs) have is in the intermediate shaft, which connects the rack to the column. I've never had one go bad on a Riv, but I've replaced a ton of them on Grand Prix's. If you believe it to be this, you would hear it and feel it in the steering wheel while turning, and if it's worn enough, you would sometimes hear it at initial braking.....Start with the wheel straight, and turn it all the way to the right, you'll hear a "pop". Now get the car rolling and let the wheel straighten itself....it will "pop" again. Same thing for turning left. If you've ever had to replace the intermediate shaft, you won't want to do it again....it's not fun.

Boy there is a lot here.

Scott - if you have the OE painted wheels, ROckAuto.com offers reconditioned ones. Also, Wilbert's (Victor NY) sells good used OE wheels, I bought a set of 4 from them some years ago and repainted them myself. Worked out great.

Kyle - sounds like maybe one of your sway bar links broke. Do you have the plastic links? They can be broken but look OK. THe plastic part actually surrounds the thin steel shaft inside... with the car on the ground push up hard on the bar on each side. The side that is broken, teh bar will move. It will not move far enough to pop out of line but with your experience with cars you will be able to tell immediately that the link is dead. You have to push real hard. The other thing this could be is a bad rear shock. Might want to inspect them.

Another thing, about the vibration, that is a toughy. THe Riv's suspension has soft springs, and they have a natural period of vibration that matches tire revs at hiway speeds. Balance and alignment have to be perfoect, or else you get vibration at highway speeds. Period. You also have to correct radial force variation, need to find a shop with a Hunter GSP9700 to match mount the tires to the rims.

Finally, sometimes the tire-rim assemblies are mis-installed. An older mechanic told me to do the following: Try using a floor jack under the round pad on the suspension member to jack the wheel up off the ground, then take off the wheel. With wheel off rotate it 2 or 3 lugs so the GM brand is at the bottom between the 2 lugs nearest bottom. Then remount wheel - put it on the hub and tighten lugs finger tight, then let the jack down enough so there is enough weight on teh wheel to keep it from turning as you torque down nuts, but not all the way. Torque the nuts to 100#-ft. THEN let jack down the rest of the way... why this often works I am not sure.

Albertj

GMFreak8 wrote:

As far as the steering goes that's exactly what it does, but its not all the time. Seems to happen randomly. If you move the wheel slightly from side to side from off center it will also always exhibit a clunking that you can feel. I notice it randomly does this on take off too if turning just the right way.

Yeah, that sounds like the intermediate shaft . It's not a fun job man. Do you know what it involves repair wise?, or should I explain....

albert, thx for the info on the wheels

Kyle, if you are unable to diagnose by following the advice in this thread, you may want to find a good front end mechanic to inspect the front end. The $50 you spend finding out what's wrong may save you the unnecessary job of repairing the steering shaft. I would not attempt the steering shaft repair until you've eliminated all the other possibilities.

Despite all the snap, crackles & pops in the front end, which I'm sure need attention, this particular description makes me think that Derek could be right about a non-functional RR caliper: "I feel absolutely nothing pulling as far as the steering wheel goes."

Sooner or later, these rear calipers with the integrated parking-brake always become a headache. And after all, Stability Control Systems apply various brakes to modify the line of the car. If the LR is working and the RR isn't, the inclination will be to swing the front of the car to the left...

I agree, the rear calipers should be inspected if the alignment is found not to fix the problem. A good way to know if a caliper is frozen is to check the pads for uneven wear. If the calipers aren't floating smoothly, the inside (piston side) pad will wear down more quickly than the outside pad.

Do you have access to one of those IR temperature guns? You could check the rotors after driving - would easily see one rotor much too hot (or too cold) helping to find a stuck caliper (dragging - much hotter than the rest, non-functional - much cooler)

97 park ave wrote:

but he said the shudder was at speed while not braking and then pulls while braking. to me that says just about anything but brakes...

a warped rotor can do this


AA wrote:
You've checked tire pressure?


True, Ive seen tires that have slipped belts cause this also

deekster_caddy wrote:

Do you have access to one of those IR temperature guns? You could check the rotors after driving - would easily see one rotor much too hot (or too cold) helping to find a stuck caliper (dragging - much hotter than the rest, non-functional - much cooler)

That's a good idea for diagnosing a caliper that's stuck and dragging. But if the caliper is simply frozen (not floating on the pins), the outside pad will not apply pressure when braking, so the inside pad does all the work. This would not cause the brake to drag and heat up the rotor, but it would cause one wheel to stop harder than the other.

yup! he should just take the tire and caliper off....he'll know right away if the pads are low or the caliper is frozen. That would take maybe 10 mins...

Another thing you can do is depress the parking brake while rolling slow and see if one wheel locks up before the other. That would indicate an unevenness in rear braking force. If both wheels seem to lock up together, the rear brakes are probably not causing your problem.

I do have one of those IR thermometers. I used it and all read within 5 degrees of each other. I found my problem though, or at major part of it....

I have a cracked k frame. They put it on the lift to inspect everything, and the relief of pressure on it caused it to crack even more than it was. I can't drive the thing now, the tires don't align at all. I have to turn the steering wheel one full turn to even go straight.

I just can't fucking win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ouch dude, Ouch