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 Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues

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96riv
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themanwithsauce
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themanwithsauce
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Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues Empty
PostSubject: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyThu Aug 18, 2011 5:39 pm

I've posted before that my car takes quite a few cranks to start when cold and that's still there. But now I have a new issue - upon startup, my car emits a bunch of smoke out the pipes. This goes away after a few seconds and does not smoke (that I've seen) when I drive. I do NOT have any warning lights on my car so AFAIK there is no engine code that I can use to guide me. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated as I have to do a 200-mile trip this weekend for a wedding and I can't take a plane or get a ride.
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Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues Empty
PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyThu Aug 18, 2011 5:56 pm

With your high mileage, if the smoke is grey/blue, it's probably burning some oil. How's your oil level after 3k miles?

_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles
^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown
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albertj
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Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues Empty
PostSubject: Oil of Ol' Age   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyThu Aug 18, 2011 6:18 pm

themanwithsauce wrote:
I've posted before that my car takes quite a few cranks to start when cold and that's still there. But now I have a new issue - upon startup, my car emits a bunch of smoke out the pipes. This goes away after a few seconds and does not smoke (that I've seen) when I drive. I do NOT have any warning lights on my car so AFAIK there is no engine code that I can use to guide me. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated as I have to do a 200-mile trip this weekend for a wedding and I can't take a plane or get a ride.


Without any additional info I suspect you're at least leaking oil past the valve guides.

What color is the smoke?

Does it matter if it's a warm start (car off a moment or 2) or cold start (car parked 2 hours or more)?

What grade fuel are you burning (just curious)?

What grade oil do you use? What brand?

and what was the mileage you racked up between each of the last ~6 changes (just curious)?

Thanks

Albertj
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themanwithsauce
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Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues Empty
PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyThu Aug 18, 2011 6:32 pm

a) The color of the smoke is white/gray and it hangs for a second but doesn't seem to be all that thick.
b) It just started recently but from what I've seen it has o sit for at least a few hours before it'll make smoke.
c) I've only used 93 octane from name brand stations
d) I'm using I believe 10W-30 mobil 1 high mileage synthetic
e) Well this was the first oil change the car had since.....uh......some time ago. I've literally done one oil change since I bought it and that was before putting it to use and so far I've done less than 2k miles. Although the car did sit for a couple of months before I got it.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyThu Aug 18, 2011 7:23 pm

Dump the synthetic and run dino oil. You do not need it with that high mileage, the thicker the better.
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flyineagle96
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Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues Empty
PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyThu Aug 18, 2011 7:47 pm

Run a half pint of tranny fuild to about a half tank of gas that should help or fix in my book!!!
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LARRY70GS
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Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues Empty
PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyThu Aug 18, 2011 7:57 pm

Any loss of coolant?

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
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themanwithsauce
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PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyThu Aug 18, 2011 8:54 pm

Nope, coolant is same level as when I filled it after replacing water pump gasket. Same with trans fluid after replacing the filter. Oil went down a tad bit but I did fill it right at the limit.

I just remembered though - I recently had the injectors cleaned (~300 miles ago) using the 3M professional injector cleaner. I don't think they sell this stuff over the counter, you either have to special order it or be a shop to buy it. I've also been putting techron additive into my tanks to further clean and reduce carbon gunk. Both of these are "secretly" recommended by the GM techs and engineers (continue using whatever product you want but the GM engineers my dad knows swear by techron products so that's what I have) Sorry to sound like a bit of a noob but is it possible this is just excess dirt/carbon getting knocked of the cylinder walls as it sits? I figured it would smoke a bit during operation but I didn't think it would smoke after startup. Especially after a few tanks of this and no smoke. The past two full tanks I put in, I used the big bottle (meant for 20 gallon tanks like on trucks and vans) and I never had smoke during startup or operation.
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97 park ave
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Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues Empty
PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyThu Aug 18, 2011 9:23 pm

^ could be that, but the long crank shouldve only happened 1 or 2 start-ups after the fuel system clean. Sounds to me like you may have an injector stuck open, causing a cylinder to be flooded with fuel after sitting for a while. This would cause not only the long crank but also the smoke.
At first i was going to say LIM gasket but you said coolant level was fine.
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Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues Empty
PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyThu Aug 18, 2011 9:26 pm

97 park ave wrote:
^ could be that, but the long crank shouldve only happened 1 or 2 start-ups after the fuel system clean. Sounds to me like you may have an injector stuck open, causing a cylinder to be flooded with fuel after sitting for a while. This would cause not only the long crank but also the smoke.
At first i was going to say LIM gasket but you said coolant level was fine.
I think you nailed it!!! thumbsup
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themanwithsauce
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PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyThu Aug 18, 2011 10:12 pm

.....THAT ALSO EXPLAINS THE BAD GAS MILEAGE!!!!


Sorry for caps but I got 13mpg on my last tank so yeah, that explains a TON. I think I'll just wait a week or two for a time when I can get all injectors replaced rather than just trying to diagnose the one or two that are toast.
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Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues Empty
PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyThu Aug 18, 2011 10:52 pm

Here's a tip to help you pin down the bad injector -

With the engine running, unplug the #1 injector. If the engine starts stumbling and running rough, like you just killed a cylinder, good. Plug it back in and see if things return to normal. Do this with injector #2... through #6, one at a time. when you unplug the injector that makes NO DIFFERENCE to the way the engine normally runs, you've most likely found the bad one. Now if you are inclined to move injectors around, remove the bad injector and another, swap the two, then repeat this trick and confirm if the problem moved with the injector, or stayed with the cylinder.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyThu Aug 18, 2011 11:45 pm

deekster_caddy wrote:
Here's a tip to help you pin down the bad injector -

With the engine running, unplug the #1 injector. If the engine starts stumbling and running rough, like you just killed a cylinder, good. Plug it back in and see if things return to normal. Do this with injector #2... through #6, one at a time. when you unplug the injector that makes NO DIFFERENCE to the way the engine normally runs, you've most likely found the bad one. Now if you are inclined to move injectors around, remove the bad injector and another, swap the two, then repeat this trick and confirm if the problem moved with the injector, or stayed with the cylinder.

This might work, but if every injector causes it to stumble than you may need to test another way as your injector(s) may be leaking with the engine off and pressure still in the line. Blow all of the debris away from the fuel rail/injectors/LIM. Remove the 4 10MM nuts that hold the fuel rail down. Gently pry the fuel rail (with the injectors) away from the LIM. Get 6 disposable party cups and place them in a way that you can set the fuel rail down and have each injector in a cup. Prime the fuel pump by turning the key forward (DO NOT CRANK THE CAR). Turn the back to the off position. Go back under the hood and look at the cups, there may be a bit of gas from when you primed the pump but what youre looking for now is the injector that keeps dripping. Good luck.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyThu Aug 18, 2011 11:51 pm

Like I said, this car has 150k miles on it since the last rebuild so I figure I might as well do all 6. I can get them for ~120 or so for all 6 + labor cost being a pizza and a beer for my dad and some bandaids and anti bacterial medication for myself (Swear to god there's more of my blood on my cars than there is in me)
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97 park ave
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PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyFri Aug 19, 2011 12:18 am

Think of all the money youd have for beer and pizza and even mods if you only ended up needing one. Just sayin...
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themanwithsauce
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PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyFri Aug 19, 2011 12:58 am

Yeah, see the thing is I'm unsure which of these injectors were carried over from the rebuild. So it is entirely possible that some of these injectors have 250k+ miles on them, like the transmission. And While 20$ gets a fair amount of beer and pizza, I'm fine with spending a few beers and pizzas on another quarter million miles of service.
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Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues Empty
PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyFri Aug 19, 2011 8:17 am

Quote :
Get 6 disposable party cups and place them in a way that you can set the fuel rail down and have each injector in a cup.
Have you ever tried this? The injectors are held in place between the rail and LIM. With the rail detatched, would there be a 100% seal for each injector? How would you know if one was actually leaking through its nozzle vs. around the o-ring?

_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles
^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown
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97 park ave
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Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues Empty
PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyFri Aug 19, 2011 8:39 am

AA wrote:
Quote :
Get 6 disposable party cups and place them in a way that you can set the fuel rail down and have each injector in a cup.
Have you ever tried this? The injectors are held in place between the rail and LIM. With the rail detatched, would there be a 100% seal for each injector? How would you know if one was actually leaking through its nozzle vs. around the o-ring?
What do you mean?
Im telling him to remove the injectors from the LIM and LIM only. The injectors should still be connected to the fuel rail and the fuel rail should still be connected to the lines. We arent looking for an external fuel leak (o-rings), the OP is complaining of a long crank with smoke on start up which indicates to me that there is fluid in the cylinders. With oil/coolant levels ok, that leaves fuel. What we are testing for is a partially stuck "jet" on the bottom of the injector. The cups are just a precaution to catch any fuel that may possibly squirt when you prime the fuel pump. Once the pump is primed you can physically pick the rail/injectors out of the cups to see which one is dripping.
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Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues Empty
PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyFri Aug 19, 2011 10:18 am

What I mean is, when you remove the rail, the injectors are not really connected using any mechanism or fastener, they're just sitting in the cups, hanging in there. They could fall out, except there is a little bit of tension from the o-ring inside the cup. I ask if you'd ever tried this, because the injectors are designed to be sandwiched between the rail cups and the LIM. If they're not, fuel pressure might (probably would) blow the injectors out of their cups, or at least fuel would leak around the o-rings, not being seated correctly. You'll see gas in one or more of the cups, but how do you know it leaked through the injector and not around the o-rings?

_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles
^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown
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Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues Empty
PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyFri Aug 19, 2011 1:12 pm

Question about those o-rings, do those typically come with the injectors or do some companies sell them without?
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Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues Empty
PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyFri Aug 19, 2011 1:25 pm

Dealer sells them for $60, ZZP sells for $5 per set. I went with dealer's set, but never heard anything bad about ZZP's. Having said that, not all O-ring materials are equal. A bad O-ring brought down Challenger, and considering what they do, I didn't have any problem spending the extra for insurance.

_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles
^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown
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Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues Empty
PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyFri Aug 19, 2011 2:17 pm

What kind of injectors are you getting for $120? The price raises quality questions in my mind. I'd rather identify the one bad injector and replace it with a good one.
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themanwithsauce
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Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues Empty
PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyFri Aug 19, 2011 5:16 pm

I'll ask my dad. He's buying them through the dealer at the technician price so I figure they're of at least average quality. Probably just a direct OE replacement.

....And while I was typing this he responded to one of my questions - the dealer does list the o-rings and injectors seperately so....might be more like 160-180$ total...
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AA
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Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues Empty
PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyFri Aug 19, 2011 5:26 pm

I'd think from a dealer they'd be $160 EACH (they retail for $156 ea before tax).

_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles
^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown
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themanwithsauce
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PostSubject: Re: Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues   Need help - smoking on startup, still have long crank issues EmptyFri Aug 19, 2011 5:36 pm

If you go for OEM AC Delco brand, yes they are horribly expensive. However, If I can find injectors sold sold at retail stores NEW for 50$ or so including the typical markup of a retail store I'm inclined to believe my dad knows what he's doing.

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