Write-Up: Subframe/Cradle Mount Insulators & Bushings

I bet a handful of pucks would be cheaper....jus sayin...

I'm going to order the washers that I saw posted on here and head to sports authority for a 12 pack of pucks. Lets do this!

go to the steel store and buy a 14x 14 sheet of 1/8" steel.make em yourself.a whole lot cheaper still...

Hey guys I bought a twelve pack of hockey pucks and I have taken off all 3 drivers side bushings. I had to sawzall 2 of them off due to the bolt rusting on the mushroom spacer on top.. Would I be able to just use a washer that Matt used in place of the mushroom spacer? I dont want to spend the cash on new ones from Ray Buick.. I need to order new bolts and a few retainer nuts.. I ended up cutting a window in the fenderwell of the car to access the rear retainer nut..

Hey Robotennis, Im going to do your setup with the multiple washers. It kinda reminds me of a sway bar endlink setup..

just follow the pic that Matt put up except place another washer below the top puck to keep it from cracking. i say so only because it happend to me.will everyones puck crack if you dont put another washer? why take a chance.it takes 6 seconds to put another one there.
as far as the mushroom washers go,are they rotted out to the point you cant use them?

I just placed my order for the washers from McMaster. It ran $45 for 15 washers.. I'm gonna order some 3 of those mushroom spacers and some bolts from gmpartsdirect later too. I had to cut the bolt off and there is a piece of the bolt rusted inside the mushroom. I cant get it out for the life of me. All I need now is to go to Home Depot and get the bits for my drill to make the holes in the hockey puck. (3/4, 1/2) Lookin good!

One of the bushings is completely broken off along with the steel where the bolt goes in. There is a 3 inch hole there. I think I can get by with 5/6 especially if I do hockey pucks and washers on em. We'll see. I was thinking about gettin a welder to come and fab up a piece of steel and weld it in. I guess I would have to drill out the hole and try to line everything up if I go that route..

Hey MR.Rivi, I'm halfway thru with the hockey pucks. Did you have to trim down the stalk on the mushroom spacer? I have about an inch that sticks out after I drilled out the hole in the hockey puck and pressed it in the mushroom spacer. the washer Im going to put between the subframe and the top hockey puck wont sit against the hockey puck. Kinda hard to explain.

chitown_riv98 wrote:

Hey MR.Rivi, I'm halfway thru with the hockey pucks. Did you have to trim down the stalk on the mushroom spacer? I have about an inch that sticks out after I drilled out the hole in the hockey puck and pressed it in the mushroom spacer. the washer Im going to put between the subframe and the top hockey puck wont sit against the hockey puck. Kinda hard to explain.

Ok,let me tell you what to do.first off, when you say "kinda hard to explain" i see that youve encountered the flange that sits above the top of the cradle.right? ok,no need to trim the mushroom spacer if it does not protrude below the bottom of the cradle.(If it does,then just enlarge the hole in the puck so that it fits thru it.understand? as long as the musroom stalk does not contact the bottom washer ,yer good.if it does just grind the stalk until it fits )place the mushroom washer in its usual place,now place the puck in its place at the underneath of the cradle,it should fit in that hole,right? first the washer,then the puck,then the shorter bolt.tighten down.I would not even worry about the top puck.run the mushroom spacer by itself on top of the cradle.
so all you need is 6 pucks total insted of 12. if you did not modify the most rearward cradle mounts do so now.as those will sit lower than the front 4 modified mounts if you run just the mushroom washers by them selves on top. got it?

when you have everything trimmed and ready to instal,tighten everything down and give it a good look see.take a pry bar and try to move shit around.if its all good.yer good.

Once again,one modifies at their own risk.common sense prevails in a perfect world.

Good idea, I'll try that. GMPartsdirect is on its way. I was dreading having to cut those stalks. I cant wait to get this [b]aby on the road again

chitown_riv98 wrote:

Good idea, I'll try that. GMPartsdirect is on its way. I was dreading having to cut those stalks. I cant wait to get this [b]aby on the road again

well,you might have to if you read thru my post.if you do the puck thing top and bottom,you will have to somehow grind off the upper cradle flange.otherwise you will crack those pucks and squeeky ride comes next.

look at all the posted pics of this mod and think about it.

Ruben, it would be cool if you could take some pictures! I want to do this as well.

RidzRiv wrote:

Ruben, it would be cool if you could take some pictures! I want to do this as well.

Imk gonna snap a few pics so that the next member can have some more to work from. Luckily, this topic has a few different options on how to deal with the cradle and problems you might encounter. GMPArtsDirect is taking a while. I think I'm gonna get the parts later this week. I already purchased the sway bar bracket bushing (Energy Susp) and the sway bar links as well.. I need to purchase a cv axle for the pass side since there are some tears in the boot. TIe rod ends might be necessary since the bolt got mushroomed from me pressin it out.

When the transmission shop overhauled my 4T65E (for the 2nd time. umm, I cooked the TC long story) they replaced the subframe bushings.. The parts cost me about $300, they got tome from GM one way or another. The old ones were OK but tore when disassembled due to rust in the rubber surfaces.

In a word... WOW.

The handling improved, even my spouse noticed it. I mean, it's a "butt accelerometer" test so I'll just say the difference was more than barely perceptible. New ones are blue (like Raybestos polyurethane sway bar link material).

I think I ought to put "replace subframe bushings" in the high mileage maintenance list as something to do at 200 or 250K miles.

I bet I need to replace control arms (unless there is a way to replace bushings)...

Albertj

The subframe hardware & bushings are still available at GM parts counters, as far as I know. Agree, doing these will give a major handling improvement. Like I said on page 5, this is the fix that effectively takes 50-100K off the car's chassis. Really, it was a night and day difference, especially since I replaced the front/rear transmission mounts at the same time.

Albertj, the control arms are not rebuildable, and RockAuto sells the complete arms for $75 per side, including ball joints. Replacing the arms is really quite simple I found. More on this topic:

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t7222-faq-lower-control-arms-bushings-1995-1996-1997-1998-1999

can anyone verify the differences between the different color options gm offers for the subframe bushings? i assume they are different levels of firmness, and if i recall there is green, orange, white and yellow to choose from.

I did the hockey pucks. The only issue I had was that the originals had rusted out and I had to sawzall them out. The clunks stopped and the handling improved. My next upgrade is the STB. I still have to mess with the suspension a little and tighten everything up tho. I think thats going to be next weekends project. Im gathering my tools to prepare to repaint in white. She was pearl but I'm going to try doing it in white at least. The OEM are so flimsey in comparison with the hockey pucks in my opinion. I had already replaced with the originals a few years back and they were giving me noises again.

Mr.Riviera wrote:

can anyone verify the differences between the different color options gm offers for the subframe bushings? i assume they are different levels of firmness, and if i recall there is green, orange, white and yellow to choose from.

My old ones were black and the new ones are sky blue.

98riv wrote:

AA wrote:

Considering the dealership parts counter quoted me over $400 just for the cradle hardware, and the mounts are also not cheap from the dealer. You can start at $500-600 for parts and assume at least 3-4 hours labor. I'd guess the total bill would be at least $900. It took me 2 days to do it, but I am glad I saved the money. Doesn't hurt to get a quote - I'd be interested in seeing what they charge.

Yikes. Don't want to spend that much money. I took another look at the two worse bolts, and it is worse then I thought. Large Picture. Notice the retainer is completely gone. All that is left of it is the little part around the bolt. The rust color is actually the bushing.

I still haven't gotten around to fixing the above issue. I want to fix the above issue with the missing lower retainer. These are the middle two rear retainers.

1) I plan on buying two new bolts and two lower retainers. Do I need to buy anything else? I've read a lot of reports about things being rusted together. If I'm not touching the upper insulator, etc. will I have to worry about removing the bolt?

2) I saw that there isn't any access to the nuts for these two bolts because it is in the frame rail. Do I need to do anything to prevent that upper nut from turning? Is it better to use a breaker bar or impact ratchet? I noticed they are on there very tight.

3) Once I get the bolt out and go put the new one in, what keeps the nut from turning when you go to reinstall the new bolt? Does the little cage lock it in place and prevent it from sliding around and up?

I have a few extra nuts and bolts left over from the job. PM me if you are interested.

AA wrote:

I have a few extra nuts and bolts left over from the job. PM me if you are interested.

I'm going to do the two rear ones in the middle that don't have access to the nut. Did you have any trouble with the nut in that location (both removing and installing)? The bushings seem to be in good shape, so I'm going to leave them and fix the major issue of the missing retainer. Will there be any issues with the bolt rusting to the spacer or subframe?

I think one or both of the middle cage nuts stripped out during removal. We needed to wedge something in there to keep them from spinning - it was one of the more difficult parts of the job.

At least two of the bolts snapped during removal (one might have been a middle, the other a front or rear). Using an impact gun and lots of PB blaster will help this issue. I've broken more bolts using breaker bars than with impacts.

I remember some of the bolts were fused to the cradle, but with some pounding they came out. All new hardware is needed, as you'll destroy some or all of the old.

AA wrote:

I think one or both of the middle cage nuts stripped out during removal. We needed to wedge something in there to keep them from spinning - it was one of the more difficult parts of the job.

At least two of the bolts snapped during removal (one might have been a middle, the other a front or rear). Using an impact gun and lots of PB blaster will help this issue. I've broken more bolts using breaker bars than with impacts.

I remember some of the bolts were fused to the cradle, but with some pounding they came out. All new hardware is needed, as you'll destroy some or all of the old.

Thanks for letting me know. I think I might just leave it alone for right now then and let the dealership deal with it later on. Sounds like too big of a potential headache.

AA wrote:

Okay, did some research on this and found the cradle mounting hardware varies slightly year to year:



Parts (listed by year):

1998:
01 - N/A
02 - 11609712 RETAINER (NUT), 6 Required (1995-1999)
03 - 25654083 SPACER, 6 Required (1995-1999)
04 - 25757174 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1997-1999, same as #08)
05 - 25674565 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1997-1999)
06 - 25609143 RETAINER, 6 Required (1995-1999)
07 - 11588419 BOLT, 6 Required (1995-1998) Spec: FRM(SILVER)(M14X2X105,10.9,38THD)(REDUCED BODY)(08.900)
08 - 25757174 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1997-1999, same as #04)
09 - 25674564 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1995-1999)
10 - 25757173 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1996-1999)
11 - 25643387 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1995-1999)
12 - 25636517 RETAINER, 6 Required (1995-1999)

source: http://parts.nalleygmc.com/showAssembly.aspx?ukey_product=0&ukey_assembly=381137&ukey_make=1022&modelYear=1998

Using GMparts direct to replace all the cradle hardware on my '98 would be $285.99. I've decided to try reusing the spacers, nuts and bolts, so total will be $147.68. I still feel this is a lot for 12 pieces of rubber and some metal clips, but I don't see any other option right now.

If needed, McMaster-Carr sells compatible bolts and nuts for lower prices. I ordered a pack of 5 bolts and 10 nuts for about $20:

It is finally time that I change the subframe insulators.  I sent the above information to gmpartsdirect as part of their verification for parts, and they sent me back some different part numbers.  Here is what they sent me:

25636517 Drivetrain and front suspension frame bolt retainer.  6 per vehicle
25654083 Drivetrain and front suspension frame Insulator spacer; 6 per vehicle
25757173 Drivetrain and front suspension frame upper insulator; position #1.  2 per vehicle
25757174 Drivetrain and front suspension frame upper insulator; position #2.  2 per vehicle.
25757174 Drivetrain and front suspension frame upper insulator; position #3.  2 per vehicle.
11588419 Drivetrain and front suspension frame bolt.  6 per vehicle.
25609143 Drivetrain and front suspension frame insulator retainer.  6 per vehicle.
25643387 Drivetrain and front suspension frame lower insulator; position #1.  2 per vehicle.
25674564 Drivetrain and front suspension frame lower insulator; position #2.  2 per vehicle.
25674565 Drivetrain and front suspension frame lower insulator' position #3.  2 per vehicle.

I bolded the different part numbers that they supplied.  Can anyone confirm or deny they are correct?  Also where is the best place to buy these from?  GMpartsdirect wants to charge $55 for shipping and handling.

I have nothing to do at work today, so I physically went to the parts counter and had my parts guy pull up that callout for a '98 Riv. This is what we came up with.....

#8 and #4 are the same P/N 25757174. You'll need 4
#5 is P/N 25674565. You'll need 2
#9 is P/N 25674564. You'll need 2

Not sure if you're doing the front, but here they are...

#10 is P/N 25757173. You'll need 2
#11 is P/N 25643387. You'll need 2

The parts catalog lists them also with colors. They must all have different firmness based on location.

Abaddon wrote:

I have nothing to do at work today, so I physically went to the parts counter and had my parts guy pull up that callout for a '98 Riv. This is what we came up with.....

#8 and #4 are the same P/N 25757174. You'll need 4
#5 is P/N 25674565. You'll need 2
#9 is P/N 25674564. You'll need 2

Not sure if you're doing the front, but here they are...

#10 is P/N 25757173. You'll need 2
#11 is P/N 25643387. You'll need 2

The parts catalog lists them also with colors. They must all have different firmness based on location.

Thanks a bunch!!! Now if they only didn't cost so much. Any suggestions on where the best place to order them from?