Write-Up: Subframe/Cradle Mount Insulators & Bushings

$55 for the whole order? Doesn't really sound that bad to me. I like shopgmparts.com. Used to be monsterpartsonline before they were bought.

Unfortunately they sold the website so www.shopgmparts.com bounces you to gmpartshouse.com, which I don't know anything about. You can email this guy though - patrick@shopgmparts.com and he will be happy to take your order. He still has excellent pricing.

Quote :

It is finally time that I change the subframe insulators.  I sent the above information to gmpartsdirect as part of their verification for parts, and they sent me back some different part numbers.

If you compare my list with the one from GMpartsDirect, they are the exact same numbers listed in different order. Also, they forgot to include: part# 11609712 RETAINER (NUT) 6 Required.

Don't forget to buy the nuts!

01 - N/A
02 - 11609712 RETAINER (NUT), 6 Required (1995-1999)
03 - 25654083 SPACER, 6 Required (1995-1999)
04 - 25757174 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1997-1999, same as #08)
05 - 25674565 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1997-1999)
06 - 25609143 RETAINER, 6 Required (1995-1999)
07 - 11588419 BOLT, 6 Required (1995-1998) Spec: FRM(SILVER)(M14X2X105,10.9,38THD)(REDUCED BODY)(08.900)
08 - 25757174 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1997-1999, same as #04)
09 - 25674564 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1995-1999)
10 - 25757173 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1996-1999)
11 - 25643387 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1995-1999)
12 - 25636517 RETAINER, 6 Required (1995-1999)
_

25636517 Drivetrain and front suspension frame bolt retainer.  6 per vehicle
25654083 Drivetrain and front suspension frame Insulator spacer; 6 per vehicle (2 per position)
25757173 Drivetrain and front suspension frame upper insulator; position #1.  2 per vehicle
25757174 Drivetrain and front suspension frame upper insulator; position #2.  2 per vehicle.
25757174 Drivetrain and front suspension frame upper insulator; position #3.  2 per vehicle.
11588419 Drivetrain and front suspension frame bolt.  6 per vehicle.
25609143 Drivetrain and front suspension frame insulator retainer.  6 per vehicle.
25643387 Drivetrain and front suspension frame lower insulator; position #1.  2 per vehicle.
25674564 Drivetrain and front suspension frame lower insulator; position #2.  2 per vehicle.
25674565 Drivetrain and front suspension frame lower insulator' position #3.  2 per vehicle.

AA wrote:

Quote :

It is finally time that I change the subframe insulators.  I sent the above information to gmpartsdirect as part of their verification for parts, and they sent me back some different part numbers.

If you compare my list with the one from GMpartsDirect, they are the exact same numbers listed in different order. Also, they forgot to include: part# 11609712 RETAINER (NUT) 6 Required.

Don't forget to buy the nuts!

01 - N/A
02 - 11609712 RETAINER (NUT), 6 Required (1995-1999)
03 - 25654083 SPACER, 6 Required (1995-1999)
04 - 25757174 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1997-1999, same as #08)
05 - 25674565 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1997-1999)
06 - 25609143 RETAINER, 6 Required (1995-1999)
07 - 11588419 BOLT, 6 Required (1995-1998) Spec: FRM(SILVER)(M14X2X105,10.9,38THD)(REDUCED BODY)(08.900)
08 - 25757174 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1997-1999, same as #04)
09 - 25674564 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1995-1999)
10 - 25757173 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1996-1999)
11 - 25643387 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1995-1999)
12 - 25636517 RETAINER, 6 Required (1995-1999)
_

25636517 Drivetrain and front suspension frame bolt retainer.  6 per vehicle
25654083 Drivetrain and front suspension frame Insulator spacer; 6 per vehicle (2 per position)
25757173 Drivetrain and front suspension frame upper insulator; position #1.  2 per vehicle
25757174 Drivetrain and front suspension frame upper insulator; position #2.  2 per vehicle.
25757174 Drivetrain and front suspension frame upper insulator; position #3.  2 per vehicle.
11588419 Drivetrain and front suspension frame bolt.  6 per vehicle.
25609143 Drivetrain and front suspension frame insulator retainer.  6 per vehicle.
25643387 Drivetrain and front suspension frame lower insulator; position #1.  2 per vehicle.
25674564 Drivetrain and front suspension frame lower insulator; position #2.  2 per vehicle.
25674565 Drivetrain and front suspension frame lower insulator' position #3.  2 per vehicle.

   I think I was looking at a different list I had and assumed it was the one here. Don't I only need to buy two nuts because you can't easily get to the other ones? I have already ordered two lower retainers, two bolts and two nuts to fix the two missing lower retainers on my car. I tried to change the lower retainer on the rear middle location today and the bolt was rusted to the lower insulator. The insulator turned out to be shot anyway. Those bolts were in there tight even after spraying Kroil on them for a week.

How hard would it be to install a new F41 sway bar at the same time?

All 6 nuts are the same. We used lots of impact gun at 120 PSI to break mine loose. I think we tried heat, can't remember for sure.

Installing the sway bar should be a snap with the cradle lowered.

Finished installing the new insulators, bushings, rust proofing and addco front sway bar.  You guys weren't joking that it is a big job.  The two inner rear insulators were shot.  They looked fine on the car, but when they were removed they fell apart.  The front insulators looked ok, but the hardware was pretty rusted so I went ahead and changed them while I was at it.  

Here are some tips that might help others:

Spray a good rust penetrant like Kroil, etc. on the exposed threads in the rear inner bolts.  I sprayed them for about a week and they were still pretty stuck in there.

My front lower insulators were really stuck in the hole of the subframe.  So I took the upper retainer, the bolt, one of the captured nuts and pressed the insulator out of the frame.  Let me see if I can describe this without a picture...  I took the upper retainer and had the spacer pointing up into the insulator from the bottom.  I ran the bolt through the retainer and insulator and placed the nut on top of the exposed retainer that was sticking through the subframe.  I used two pry bars and wedged them in so that the retainer didn't contact the frame and prevent the insulator from moving downward.  I then cranked down on the bolt until it pushed the insulator out of the subframe hole.  When it finally let go, it made a loud cracking noise.  Be careful that you don't use too much force, that you break something else.  That was the only way I could get the insulators out of the hole.

I don't think it is possible to remove the upper retainer and bushing without loosening the rest of the bolts.  I didn't have enough room to remove the pieces otherwise.  I removed the bolt for the front engine mount, but I didn't remove anything else.  I worked from the rear forward switching sides when each location was finished.  I used the jack to help support the subframe while working.

Take your time removing the bolts.  My impact wrench wasn't strong enough to remove the rear passenger bolts.  I ended up using a breaker bar with a pipe on the end and slowly loosening and tightening the bolts until they were loose.  They were getting kind of thin due to rust.

I coated the bolts and the metal where the insulators contact the frame with plenty of antiseize.  Hopefully it will prevent things from getting to stuck in there if I ever have to remove them.  

Plan on spending some time rust proofing some of the areas.  This will add some time for the install, but it is worth it.  I also coated the retainers with SEM paint that is supposed to prevent rust.  Hopefully it will help the hardware last longer.

Plan on replacing all of the hardware.  You might be able to reuse some the pieces, but I ended up having to replace it all.  You don't want to have to do this job again anytime soon. I reused all of the nuts. Probably could have replaced the passenger side rear inner nut, but didn't want to try removing it.

I ended up ordering most of the pieces from http://www.gmpartscenter.net/.  There shipping is a lot lower and their prices are comparable to others.

Another bold mechanic who's succeeded at this job. Glad it's turning out well. Think I'd rather pull the engine than drop the cradle again... but it's well worth doing this for the ride improvement!

AA wrote:

Another bold mechanic who's succeeded at this job. Glad it's turning out well. Think I'd rather pull the engine than drop the cradle again... but it's well worth doing this for the ride improvement!

Nothing like the satisfaction of DIY mechanics. I'm going to be taking on a subframe swap in a few months so we'll see how it goes. Congrats on the repair.

98riv wrote:

...
Spray a good rust penetrant like Kroil, etc. on the exposed threads in the rear inner bolts.  I sprayed them for about a week and they were still pretty stuck in there.

...

Take your time removing the bolts.  My impact wrench wasn't strong enough to remove the rear passenger bolts.  I ended up using a breaker bar with a pipe on the end and slowly loosening and tightening the bolts until they were loose.  They were getting kind of thin due to rust.

You're not kidding about this part. I had a pipe on a breaker bar and cracked my 18mm socket. When I replaced it I picked up a thicker walled impact 18mm and that managed to break it free.

im about to tackle the rear 4 on mine i already took the inner ones out to replace the retainers and when i took the bolts out,via a torch and impact i noticed the center metal bushings were rotted to the bolt so i took the remaining metal off and rammed the bolt back up with the new retainers,i know i need to replace the mount/hardware my question is has anyone used the dorman 924-004 and or 924-005 mounts as replacements?if so any writeups or tips using those?

I found these dorman replacements.

http://www.amazon.com/Dorman-924-044-Subframe-Bushing-Kit/dp/B00GJ1EJ92

It fits a 99 which uses a different bolt or just a different part number from 98, but other wise it looks the same as the 98 according the the diagram and part numbers from this thread. This looks to fit the far back cradle mount. Possibly the back inner one as well. I'm not sure what the difference in the lower bushing is between those two. They show different part numbers for the lower bushing and the same part numbers for the rest of the stuff for those two rear mounts. Any thoughts on this? I was thinking this could be an option for the rear two mount assemblies. Might be a cheaper solution as well.

how sweet it is!

Well, this might be a first, was at my mechanic to change the struts and decided that the sub-frame insulators have had it, so we ordered a new set. When we went to install them the old ones which still looked whole, just fell apart in pieces. But after removing the first one which was the furthest back on the passenger side, we found that the new insulators pass right through the hole!!! I couldn't go one day without the car so instead of continuing to investigate the others, we decided to order a "new"sub-frame. fearing the that the opening on the others might be just as bad. Anyone ever run into this, is there a way to repair yhis problem without swapping cradles?

Did it rot a larger hole in that spot or is the new mount smaller?

Good call, I didn't even think about comparing them. I kept the old one so will check, thanks.

Well, my mechanic ordered a new sub-frame from Florida, looks brand new ! Also ordered all six insulators, everything went together great. Old sub-frame had had it. The holes had rusted larger than the washers so it was just slapping up against the car under hard breaking and insulators just crumbled in your hands. Car feels much tighter and smooth. But, now when I shift from reverse to drive there is a very noticeable "bunk" and when the car is in drive at a light there is a slight vibration that is very noticeable. I mean my car use to sit at a light and sometimes my passengers would wonder if the car was running? Also the movement on the front driver side Trans mount seems extreme?! I am assuming that because the vibration happens in drive and the "bunk" sounds happens from reverse to drive that the problem is a trans mount? Is it possible that because everything is tight now, that the relatively older trans mount is giving way more? I don't know, thoughts? Also, I believe there are three trans mounts on our cars correct? Where are they exactly?

Yep, I bet your trans mounts are toast. Mine were all torn as well after I removed the subframe. They take more of a beating when you have subframe bushing issues. I'd say you need rear and front trans mount. You should window weld them while you're at it. That's what I'm working on

Well, the rear and tranny mounts need replacing, but the only one I can seem to find is the rear, anyone have a link or know if the front one is still available?

Spent some time on this thread today to gain some insite on how to go about this task. Im going to attempt to do this in my gravel drive way all I got is some scissor jacks. My question is will the cradel drop enough at each corner to allow me to get these bushings replaced if I do one corner at a time ? I have a 3/4" drive set I got from harbor freight its got the mother of all rachets to help me bust these bolts loose. And my other question, is gm parts direct the best place to get these parts I would like to get it all in one shot if possible. I guess the rest is saying a prayer that its not all rusted out.
Im also going to spray PB on the bolts till spring comes in the hopes that it will help get these bolts loose with out tearing any thing up.  I started to hear the popping sound right after I replaced the rear air shocks about a month ago and from what I gather is that the front end is being loaded harder now since the air shocks are new and have alot more grunt to them.

sloshua wrote:

Spent some time on this thread today to gain some insite on how to go about this task. Im going to attempt to do this in my gravel drive way all I got is some scissor jacks. My question is will the cradel drop enough at each corner to allow me to get these bushings replaced if I do one corner at a time ? I have a 3/4" drive set I got from harbor freight its got the mother of all rachets to help me bust these bolts loose. And my other question, is gm parts direct the best place to get these parts I would like to get it all in one shot if possible. I guess the rest is saying a prayer that its not all rusted out.
Im also going to spray PB on the bolts till spring comes in the hopes that it will help get these bolts loose with out tearing any thing up.  I started to hear the popping sound right after I replaced the rear air shocks about a month ago and from what I gather is that the front end is being loaded harder now since the air shocks are new and have alot more grunt to them.

Unfortunately you can't do one corner at a time. The subframe won't drop down far enough. I had to remove all the bolts in the rear and then loosen the front bolts a little bit to give me enough room while supporting the subframe with a jack. Go slow and don't try to force the bolts too much.

Thanks for the info!

Anyone know how to make sure the subframe is in the right spot? I took the old rusty,cracked one off and got a replacement but I'm paranoid that its square to where its supposed to go. I got hit a few years ago and took some damage

The mushroom washers are there to locate and square the subframe to the chassis. It's almost impossible to install it crooked

Thanks Robo. I'm almost there. Can't wait for that first super cruise. I took a break after taking two engines and two transmissions out. About to get back in the garage

Does anyone have a diagram or a reference to a diagram that explains Position #1, 2 and 3 that are referenced in regards to the front cradle mount.?

I looked through my manual but haven't found it.

I have the FSM, maybe someone can tell me what volume, page it is located in.

Thanks in advance of any help you can provide.

IIRC position 1 is the subframe bushing under the radiator which would be front.