High Compression L36 bottom + L67 SC (Corey's Engine Build)

Ports were just cleaned for the most part... I didn't want to spend a week just smoothing away every little thing (last time I did that, me & my old roommate spent 20hrs porting a LIM for his I/C'd Gen5)

Engine
The motor is done, just gotta do s/c prep & bolt it on. All accessories are clean/painted, ready to bolt on (Series 1 A/C bracket heavily modified to use old compressor as idler for now, until he gets a bypass to run with the S2 bracket).

Harness
Wiring is all laid out to get connected tomorrow (using about 10 pins of the C101 connector to send signals through the firewall... then re-routing them to go to the dash & relays, rather than old pcm conectors). Took me about a week of staring at it while we were prepping engine parts to figure out a plan, then I got on a big roll yesterday when the method finally clicked. I've seen, helped, & heard about it being done many times by close buddies (Fiero's, pre-97 W's, etc), but took a while to get into the mode. Then it took me a little bit to find the info in the old 95 books, but once I got into the zone, the pages turned themselves, so to speak.

Tranny
Haven't touched it yet, but will be swapping the TC for a 7k '04 GTP one I have, tomorrow (and HD flexplate on the engine). Making the DIY shift kit in medium mode with the extra purple spring, with new filter/fluid (did this on a car 2yrs ago in hard mode, and it felt good, but I don't wanna use hard in this tank). Diff and axle upgrade will come later, when he can buy some fresh CV's to be 100%. The non-HD ones have held up to alot more power in other cars, so I'm not worried about the few months it'll stay in a 3.8 pulley setup.

Overall, I still hate these G/H body tanks, but now that the pieces are all in place, our optimism will carry this through to completion by Saturday/Sunday. Later on, if he wants to re-enable the luxury items (ABS, cruise, A/C, etc.), it won't be a problem, since I left all the necessary wiring & connectors in the loom. I might suggest a swap to a more crisp vehicle in the distant future, but it's up to Corey to convince me to help with adding mods (I/C, headers, etc) to this car, by doing some winter clean-up and maintenance before I'm on-board for that.

More progress, and eventually completion pics to come.

- Dave

That sounds like some serious progress there.

Dave..are you saying instead of going through the old pcm you are going directly to the gauges etc?

As for doing more in the future..please know that the rear header goes in from underneath and it's a lift up and it's in operation. No need to have 3 friends pull the motor forward and hammer the exhaust in from the top.

Your swapping in a 4T65. I didn't see it earlier in the thread.

I find it interesting your suggestion to give the engine a better vehicle in the future.

AA wrote:

I find it interesting your suggestion to give the engine a better vehicle in the future.

Let's put it this way... this setup (S1x, 3.8", 9.4:1, 3.29) in a Riv tank without going further with pulley/exhaust/etc is going to be somewhere in the low 14's... put it in a W-body and it's mid-high 13's... put it in a Fiero and it's high 12's.

Aside from the obvious aspect of choosing a better platform if he wants to use the current & future HP to go fast, rather than just getting it rolling, there's the condition of the car... remember he bought it for $700, and there's quite a few reasons why. These cars are no spring chickens, just try doing some suspension maintenance & I'm sure you'll agree.

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Thanks for the header note, if he gets to that point, hopefully I remember. (took me a half hour to remember how to use my ZZP Gen2 pulley puller for another guy yesterday)

And yes for 4t65e... you can see it in the inital discussion about bringing home a complete '98 Park Ave drop-out last month. I told him if we're doing this, it's best to get the most current versions of things, to avoid back-tracking later. This car had a 1 generation older engine, 2 generations older pcm, and a 1 generation older tranny, so it's best to remove all obsolete items and get up to the level where all REAL successful 3800's start from ('98+ items). If the car happened to be a 96 or 97, I may have considered dealing with the 4t60e (96) and just cleaning up the motor, or putting up with the oddball pcm (96-97) to hopefully control the engine without knock module issues, etc... but now there's no question how to deal with the new parts, same way as any other 98-02 (before tranny and pcm electronics got changed in 03&04+)

We plan on prepping the tranny & CV's tomorrow, to drop that in & get those 3 mounts connected. If there's time, we'll wrestle the engine in as well... but I don't look forward to fighting that damn passenger mount.

- Dave

sorry guys but i agree with Dave 100%. thats why i have been looking for 98-01 grand prix coupe with no engine. with a decent body. i honestly thing it would be a better investment for me to get a GP, and paint it up how i like it. lets be real tho. you guys have seen the tricked out rivs on ebay. they dont get any money for em. but a decent GP would be better upgrade for me for the plain fact. it will be quick less weight and lots more aftermarket. which is what im looking for. i will drive the riv with this engine, until i have the money to get a GP coupe, and money to pay for the swap and paint and everything. im not saying that i dont like the riv but Dave is right it is a Tank. alos as Dave stated above i did buy the car for 700. and there is many reasons why. if i was to paint it, i would need to strip down the car right down to bare metal($500 worth of supply's)then i need select prime(110 a gallon) select prime(135 a gallon) then the money for the paint(no idea but not cheap) then money for clear coat(was 110 for each of the 3 parts) thats close to 700 bucks with out masking paper, tape or sand paper. the paint will cost the same as the price of the car. plus the money i have put in to the engine. thats almost triple what i have payed for the car. or i can save that money and get a grand prix and run faster , and it looks better IMO. and grand prix would be a better investment in my view. if i had the money right now the engine would be going into a grand prix. but i dont

I hear what you guys are saying. Of course a lighter car is going to be faster, but does that necessarily mean better? If that's the thought process, why not sell both the RIv and the engine, and get something really fast? It would appear that by the time you're done swapping in the motor, then swapping out the car, you will have spent enough to have just bought something nice that required a lot less work.

As for another car being a "better investment", this should be completely irrelevant at this point. After the amount of time and effort you've put into the project, don't fool yourself into believing that you will ever get back anything close to what you put in. This project is about fun, and fun requires money.

There are lots of good reasons for keeping your Riviera. You used to have a car with lots of luxury features, now it seems the motor is the only thing that matters? You had a piece of automotive design history, now you want to replace it with some bread and butter Pontiac? You used to be on your way to owning one of the fastest Rivs on the road. Now... just another 3800.

This started out as a really cool Riviera project, but now it's just some car-to-put-around-your-engine project. Guess I was looking forward to seeing you follow through on the original goal.

The few extras that a Riv offers are nice, but not worth suffering the money & work consequences to enjoy. (reaching a little less for dual climte control buttons, air ride that needs initial repair, more legroom if you use it as a friend taxi, etc.) Dunno if you've ever been in a GS or GTP, but they've got all the same interior options, more refined, and less complex/more available maintenance items to replace.

The Riv was definitely something I thought we could make into a semi-luxury car with some pep, but there's just too many things (outside the engine bay) in need of repair to re-create what most of you guys love about your Riv's... interior, exterior, underside, susp/steering.

As for something "better" for performance... there's very few powertrains out there that can see proven reliable 350-400bhp with a basic engine combination that costs $1-2k, getting 30mpg regularly. For most 4-banger setups, a good turbo alone costs that much, and a V8 would suck up any leftover money in gas real quick. I don't see W-body's as the end-all solution, as I have stopped modding mine 2yrs ago, aside from maintenance, in favor of a RWD 3800 project for this fall.

These are the engines I became comfortable modding in college, when I originally bought my GP for the comfort, mpg's, and cargo room (gobs compared to smaller cars, but if I needed to utilize all the room of a Riv, I'd rather sign on some help for my cross-country moves). There's other options out there for performance, but there's also other options for luxury. In the end, what do you think an 18y/o kid truly bought this supercharged grandpa car for... the same reason I bought my supercharged family car for... to have something nice, but with the option to play around. I've since learned to work on a few other performance powertrains like LS1's and 2JZ's, but still love the simplicity and economy of the 3800's for someone wanting to mod successfully on a budget.

- Dave

AA wrote:

I hear what you guys are saying. Of course a lighter car is going to be faster, but does that necessarily mean better? If that's the thought process, why not sell both the RIv and the engine, and get something really fast? It would appear that by the time you're done swapping in the motor, then swapping out the car, you will have spent enough to have just bought something nice that required a lot less work.

As for another car being a "better investment", this should be completely irrelevant at this point. After the amount of time and effort you've put into the project, don't fool yourself into believing that you will ever get back anything close to what you put in. This project is about fun, and fun requires money.

There are lots of good reasons for keeping your Riviera. You used to have a car with lots of luxury features, now it seems the motor is the only thing that matters? You had a piece of automotive design history, now you want to replace it with some bread and butter Pontiac? You used to be on your way to owning one of the fastest Rivs on the road. Now... just another 3800.

This started out as a really cool Riviera project, but now it's just some car-to-put-around-your-engine project. Guess I was looking forward to seeing you follow through on the original goal.

thats one of the things I always liked about the riv. IMO, it just looks better than any other 3800 vehicle. Always has. The GTP coupes doors look to strange to me and as for a 4-door, well it speaks for itself. The riv always looked fast...but yea its nothing much unless well modded. neither is any other 3800 car.

Looks are entirely opinion. Power to weight ratio is inevitably in the GP's favor. GP's got the aftermarket support, although I haven't personally had any issues in that area for the riv yet. Resale and investment figures are not great for either car. Cool factor is situational. Class belongs entirely to the riv.

And let me tell you there is a respect factor when making a totally street luxury buick that weighs over 4000lbs get numbers at the track or beat faster cars on the street. For GP's, I would almost consider that to be routine and expected. In other words, it's worthless unless you mod it.


Which one would I rather have in my driveway in 5 years? No contest. If I was given a new GTP, it would be sold.

Yeah, it is a little disappointing that the fastest street Riv around won't be for very long. Looks like the engine's break-in time before the 2.6 goes on will be longer than the time the engine is in the Riv. Do what you want, but the GP's are a little too common and expected for our tastes. Yeah it'll be fast, but noone would ever expect to be beaten by a Riviera.

dezldave961 wrote:

The few extras that a Riv offers are nice, but not worth suffering the money & work consequences to enjoy. (reaching a little less for dual climte control buttons, air ride that needs initial repair, more legroom if you use it as a friend taxi, etc.) Dunno if you've ever been in a GS or GTP, but they've got all the same interior options, more refined, and less complex/more available maintenance items to replace.

The Riv was definitely something I thought we could make into a semi-luxury car with some pep, but there's just too many things (outside the engine bay) in need of repair to re-create what most of you guys love about your Riv's... interior, exterior, underside, susp/steering.

As for something "better" for performance... there's very few powertrains out there that can see proven reliable 350-400bhp with a basic engine combination that costs $1-2k, getting 30mpg regularly. For most 4-banger setups, a good turbo alone costs that much, and a V8 would suck up any leftover money in gas real quick. I don't see W-body's as the end-all solution, as I have stopped modding mine 2yrs ago, aside from maintenance, in favor of a RWD 3800 project for this fall.

These are the engines I became comfortable modding in college, when I originally bought my GP for the comfort, mpg's, and cargo room (gobs compared to smaller cars, but if I needed to utilize all the room of a Riv, I'd rather sign on some help for my cross-country moves). There's other options out there for performance, but there's also other options for luxury. In the end, what do you think an 18y/o kid truly bought this supercharged grandpa car for... the same reason I bought my supercharged family car for... to have something nice, but with the option to play around. I've since learned to work on a few other performance powertrains like LS1's and 2JZ's, but still love the simplicity and economy of the 3800's for someone wanting to mod successfully on a budget.

- Dave

I don't dispute anything you're saying, except maybe the part about the W-Body being "more refined" and "less complex". Maybe you have that impression from Corey's car, but most Rivs are pretty seamless in their operation, and motor swaps aside, actually not too bad to work on. I can't really tell you there's been anything I couldn't fix myself for not much $ except the transmission.

My comments were meant for Corey to reconsider diverting from his original plan. He was all talk about using your engine build to make his Riv into something new and different. I had my doubts, but you and Corey have both been proving this thing a reality. It's very exciting to see the project come this far - until you tear off the worthless Riviera skin and throw it into an ordinary GP or GS. You might as well take a Z06 Corvette and then say, "Oh, wait... this motor would be better in a Camaro."

Killing Riviera = waste of a perfectly good car so you can have something lighter, with more doors, not any better quality, and about as unique as sand on the beach.

The Z06 to Camaro comment is kinda funny too (best friend has a forged/procharged LS6 in his '00 SS)... Nah, but I'm not saying anything BAD about Riv's, and I know all to well how common GP's are (I lived in Flint, Michigan for 5yrs... home of the 3800... talk about common). It'd be a slick car if he had something that was crisp, but that's unfortunately not the situation we've begun with.

Who knows, maybe Corey gets around to cleaning the car up once he's actually got it on the road later this month, and decides we're gonna do the future upgrades in the current chassis. At least I wouldn't have to pull the motor again for a while, now that the cam is in, thankfully, just tack stuff on around the block.

Just got back from getting very nice/fresh tranny lines heater core hoses from the yard. Gonna try making some progress tonight.

- Dave

I'm really looking forward to seeing how this all turns out. Dave, you've convinced me that this L36/M90 build is going to work, and naturally I, being who I am, want to see it stay in a Riviera. It's Corey's car, though. Hope he decides to keep it real.

Maybe buy another '95 Riv (N/A) to put the motor in? Then you'd have a donor car, Corey.

AA wrote:

Maybe buy another '95 Riv (N/A) to put the motor in? Then you'd have a donor car, Corey.

But the harness is now set-up to drop in a s/c S1 '95 now!?!?! (nah, I could re-pin that in a heartbeat, and do the same changes to the interior harness for the dash as well)... we'll see though, I'm gonna give it a few months & hopefully he can get the rest of the car in shape.

I'll be working for the next couple hours to finalize things, so that tomorrow we can drop in the completed tranny & engine, and be ready for a start-up by Monday.

Vids & pics to come throughout the week.

BY THE WAY... anyone have a 98-99 Riviera pcm bin file they could email me or Corey (stock/modded/etc), so I don't have to run one of my blasphemous 98 GTP files in this?

- Dave

IBx1 wrote:

Yeah, it is a little disappointing that the fastest street Riv around won't be for very long. Looks like the engine's break-in time before the 2.6 goes on will be longer than the time the engine is in the Riv. Do what you want, but the GP's are a little too common and expected for our tastes. Yeah it'll be fast, but noone would ever expect to be beaten by a Riviera.

yea but , when i got my riv, i saw it on craigslist. i saw supercharger coupe and leather. the only reasons i bought it.(reminded me of the old car) that was before i knew nothing about the 3800. honestly if i had to do it all over again i would have gotten a grand prix. but as for mods im not doing anything else to the riv. im leaving the 3.8 pulley on it, just going to run the engine like this.i might do exhaust. pay all of the bills. and save the money for a GP. for maybe next year. save my money for a whole year or longer, and scrap the riv and take this engine and put it in a GP coupe

Don't scrap it- I'll give you a couple hundred for it. Figure if you bought it for 700 and are using the motor and trans, the shell should be worth 200-300. When you get your GP, I'll have to show you the Rivs can still hang... straight line and through the curves.

ewolfe0050 wrote:

Don't scrap it- I'll give you a couple hundred for it. Figure if you bought it for 700 and are using the motor and trans, the shell should be worth 200-300. When you get your GP, I'll have to show you the Rivs can still hang... straight line and through the curves.

*sniff-sniff*... I smell a 2009 challenge. Actually, more like a grudge match, to mak sure that if Corey jumps ship that his new path was worth it. All's it takes is money... car money & mod money... getting it to perform with the right parts is not an issue.

BTW - all interior wiring & engine harness wiring are done now. Just gotta get some eyelets to make a few grounds, and soldering up a relay for the Park-Neutral starter enable right now.

- Dave

dezldave961 wrote:

Let's put it this way... this setup (S1x, 3.8", 9.4:1, 3.29) in a Riv tank without going further with pulley/exhaust/etc is going to be somewhere in the low 14's... put it in a W-body and it's mid-high 13's... put it in a Fiero and it's high 12's.

I sure hope you do better than low 14s. I ran a 14.09 with my mods (in sig). Haven't been to the track since the headers and tranny/gears were done.

Although I don't know what you can expect from the whole L32/L67 mongrel setup.

Sounds like great work so far. I'm always impressed with the massive amount of wiring that needs to be done. Good work!

Just being conservative with the estimates... no clue how these cars react to various mod levels, and know that a 3.8 pulley won't push this too hard, although the L36 block will make it seem closer to a 3.5-6 pulley setup to start with. The cam should add a little to the potential before we start pushing the setup's limit, but definitely gonna start slow while using limited airflow mods at 1st.

- Dave

i am far from being a car expert, but i know that with the right mods and money you can take just about any car and make it fast, though some would require more money than others. But IMO, it matters the car u decide to build the engine around, it shows something about ur personality and taste in cars, not just making something fast. I know that the rivs weight is definitely a disadvantage, but to me that is just and added challenge that would make victory greater. I think it is more noteworthy to mod something that not many people would than just to find the easiest car to make fast. I think many of u will agree with me that the riv is a very classy futuristic badass looking design, and i think it deserves to be made fast as thats the image it presents to me, when i look at, like it should be a really fast car. Plus i think it would be exciting as it looks like a sleeper car to blow cars away on the street with it and leave a "WTF was that" look on peoples faces. But thats just my opinion of the riv, and i know it costs a lot of money to mod cars, so its tempting to do it as cheaply as possible. Just thought id throw that out there.

dboy wrote:

i am far from being a car expert, but i know that with the right mods and money you can take just about any car and make it fast, though some would require more money than others. But IMO, it matters the car u decide to build the engine around, it shows something about ur personality and taste in cars, not just making something fast. I know that the rivs weight is definitely a disadvantage, but to me that is just and added challenge that would make victory greater. I think it is more noteworthy to mod something that not many people would than just to find the easiest car to make fast. I think many of u will agree with me that the riv is a very classy futuristic badass looking design, and i think it deserves to be made fast as thats the image it presents to me, when i look at, like it should be a really fast car. Plus i think it would be exciting as it looks like a sleeper car to blow cars away on the street with it and leave a "WTF was that" look on peoples faces. But thats just my opinion of the riv, and i know it costs a lot of money to mod cars, so its tempting to do it as cheaply as possible. Just thought id throw that out there.

i understand were ur coming from but look it this way a $ 700 car. with a 1000+ dollar engine, and a 1200 dollar paint job does that make any sense to you. i would be putting more money in to the car then its worth.call me crazy but thats just doesn't make any sense

palermocorey90 wrote:

i understand were ur coming from but look it this way a $ 700 car. with a 1000+ dollar engine, and a 1200 dollar paint job

I thought you were painting your car in school. A $700 car with a $1000 engine? Makes plenty of sense to me because then it's a $3000 car. A car that you can drive and enjoy, and drive and drive and drive. That makes it worth... whatever it's worth to YOU.

Going to start over with a car you don't know when you already have a car you do know and have said over and over how cool it is? I know plenty of Grand Prixs, but I don't want one. Ride is too harsh. Seats are OK at best. I drove 9 hours to ohio with a bunch of GPs from our local club and every time we stopped they unfolded from their cars aching and moaning. Not me, just hanging out on my personal luxo-sofa-cozy seat, enjoying the scenery. Is my car a little bit heavier and a little bit slower than theirs? Yep, it is. That's okay with me, not going to beat myself up over 150 lbs and .3 seconds in the 1/4 mile when I can have all the extras you get with the Riv. I still cut a 2.09 60' and 98 mph in the 1/4 that trip, and I didn't break anything and I drove my car home. Not everybody did. I'm very happy with it all.

It's worth whatever it's worth to you, and you already have the Riv. If you don't like it then drive something else. How much will it cost you to get into a different car?

im not sure, im not looking in to it till next spring at the earliest . don't get me wrong riviera are great cars, im not saying there not.but im 18 i don't need all of those luxurys. i honestly like the GP seats better. this right now is just an idea in the back of my head. im going to drive the riviera, till i find a decent grand prix

BTW im not im school so bye bye 100K paint booth