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 FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?

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T Riley
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:15 am

Do it up. You might as well drop a few pulley sizes. spray some alky and letter buck..
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LT1Squirrel
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:38 pm

deek, ill probably mount it in the intake tube post-iat
98, yessir that was my next investment, private grad school tuition payments are stranglin me at the moment, i just want to see how far meth can get me, a 14.3 with just that would be nice
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:12 pm

Be careful about praying pre-MAF sensor. That's in the TB and not sure how it would react to being sprayed with wet meth. Would it evaporate by then?
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:48 am

deekster_caddy wrote:
Be careful about praying pre-MAF sensor. That's in the TB and not sure how it would react to being sprayed with wet meth. Would it evaporate by then?

I have a couple ideas about to atomize the meth before it hits the maf sensor
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:06 am

I had read that you don't want to spray meth pre-maf because it can damage the sensor. The temperature shock also will do damage. IE. Hot/warm air firing past at part throttle, and when the meth spray starts the cooling shock screws the sensor.(which is calibrated by temp) But its up to you.

What year of car do you have? some gens of SC are also more susceptible to meth flaking the rotor coating off than others. If its a 98+ they are *usually* ok, if it has a gen5 it is fine, if its a m62 you WILL lose your coating in short order. 96-97 is hit and miss with the results, if you coating has some chips the meth will finish the job.

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LT1Squirrel
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:57 am

Karma wrote:
I had read that you don't want to spray meth pre-maf because it can damage the sensor. The temperature shock also will do damage. IE. Hot/warm air firing past at part throttle, and when the meth spray starts the cooling shock screws the sensor.(which is calibrated by temp) But its up to you.

What year of car do you have? some gens of SC are also more susceptible to meth flaking the rotor coating off than others. If its a 98+ they are *usually* ok, if it has a gen5 it is fine, if its a m62 you WILL lose your coating in short order. 96-97 is hit and miss with the results, if you coating has some chips the meth will finish the job.

Its a 99, it has 130k+, so im not too worried about blowing it up... she gets beat on constantly and has survived thus far, and i dont plan on pulling back haha
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:04 am

Ah you will be fine! DO it! smile

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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:35 am

Im pretty sure i have the quickest bone stock car, and maybe the quickest stock pulley car... so i kinda wanna see how far i can push stock pulley before going smaller
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T Riley
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:00 pm

LT1Squirrel wrote:
Im pretty sure i have the quickest bone stock car, and maybe the quickest stock pulley car... so i kinda wanna see how far i can push stock pulley before going smaller

Sorry to hear that.
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LT1Squirrel
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:37 pm

98riviera98 wrote:

Sorry to hear that.

i dont get it.... ?
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:48 pm

I'm not sorry to hear it - keep the stock pulley and make the car fast without boost. One guy at DHP forums tuned his GTP to run mid 13's on a stock pulley - with 87 octane!

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'98 SC Riviera • 268k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
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LT1Squirrel
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:03 pm

It went 14.6 100% bone stock this spring, so with a couple tricks and maybe a mod or 2 i can def hit a 13.99999
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:16 pm

14.6 with no mods is a bit hard to believe. You had to do something.

And 13.9 is a long way away from 14.6! wink

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'98 SC Riviera • 268k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180Ί t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO • 49k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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LT1Squirrel
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:16 pm

AA wrote:
14.6 with no mods is a bit hard to believe. You had to do something.

And 13.9 is a long way away from 14.6! wink

Well the DA was negative 1400 or so, that probably helped a bit haha

I can see 13.9 as doable, gotta hook better and do some little tinkering wink
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PostSubject: I think im gonna do it   Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:41 am

I think im gonna do it - Meth injection that is. I have been doing alot of research and it just makes sense. I know a few people that ran it on their DSM's back in the days with amazing results.
This was some of the info I found in regards to running it with a roots blower:
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a93/Can-I-Spray-Water-Methanol-Injection-Through-My-Eaton-Supercharger/article_info.html
I have been shopping around for kits and I think the Snow Performance might be the winner, This is the kit I have some experience with ( friends that ran it ) plus they have a progressive controller that works with GM mafs:
http://www.snowperformance.net/stage-2-gm-maf-boost-cooler.html
I remember back in my DSM days guys being able to tune as much as 8psi more ( Turbo ) with meth than they could without it, virtually 0 knock. this was on 93 pump.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:54 am

I think its a great idea! cant wait to see your results.
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Karma
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:34 pm

Just an FYI, from that site this:


Quote :
Will it effect the coating on my supercharger?
Yes, for many of the superchargers, those which are not anodized, over time it will remove the thin coating on the rotors. If you were to ever remove the rotor pack after having ran the water methanol injection for a period of time. They will almost look like they have been polished. While the water methanol injection will remove this coating. It has not proven detrimental or effected the performance of the supercharger. This coating is designed to wear and will eventually deteriorate over time regardless if water methanol injection is used.



Is bullshit.

The first part is right, the meth will affect your rotor coating.  It will eat the coating on m62 rotors in short order, coatings on the m90s older than part way through the 97 year will stand up better than the m62 but will also get eaten, and anything newer than partway through that magic 97 year will hold up not too bad for the most part but slowly get removed.  

The parts about it being normal(no meth) for a coating to deteriorate and that efficiency and performance is not changed is the major bullshit part.  The coatings should NOT start to peel through normal use, and if they do the bits can cause issues when ingested by the engine.  The loss of your rotor coatings WILL lower the efficiency of the blower which in turn causes performance loss.  A fully uncoated set of rotors will lose around 1.5 PSI of boost.

There are also a couple of other things wrong with that quote, but I covered the important ones.

But, that said, get yourself a spare set of rotors. Use a solvent and pre-strip the rotors.  Then no issues ingesting the bits when it starts to flake.  From the efficiency and performance end, an interesting thing happens when using meth injection pre-blower.  The water and its inherent surface tension properties takes up the void at the rotor tips as it runs through the blower.  This closes up the gaps and brings your efficiency and boost back again and then some.  And that’s all on top of the cooling effect.

The lesson here, is never accept technical data from someone who is trying to sell you a product.  Use info and data from people in the community who have been there tried that.

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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:43 pm

All Karma sez is correct.First time I disassembled the S/C for cleaning,I used brake cleaner.duh.I knew less than I know now about coatings and the such.The brake cleaner stripped the coating RIGHT OFF! no joke.It came off in sheets! There is some remnants of the Teflon coating but not much. as for the methanol,it sounds like a dynamite idea! The spare rotors tip is tops!
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:55 pm

I just look at it like this: The gain from the meth injection far outweighs the loss from 1.5psi drop that you might see. Just run an even smaller pulley to compensate smile . The other thing that was weighing on my mind is if you will see pressure drop due to the temp drop of the incoming air. I know from by experience with turbo vehicles in the past is that the more temp drop you have, the more the pressure will drop do to X amount of volume of air becoming more dense. I would imagine this same effect will take place with liquid intercooling.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:26 pm

Don't forget the supporting mods. I would do all of the basics before even dropping a pulley size.
-180* Thermostat
-AL104 Plugs
-Fenderwell Intake
-3" Downpipe (Most sets of headers come with this)
-HF Cat
-Headers
-Tune
After all of that you should be good to run a 3.3" pulley without the meth. You can do a 3.5" without the exhaust mods or tune, but some wouldn't recommend it. Always scan for knock, even if you don't think you have any. This is a good list to follow;
http://rivperformance.editboard.com/t23-faq-modding-101-how-to-increase-acceleration-performance
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:27 pm

Well, Todd Balestrini,We wait with baited breath the realization and completion of this project. Dont wait too long,otherwise we will all hater on you and label you a braggart and and a dreamer! jus sayin,ya know people are gonna talk shit if ya dont!

bounce 
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:39 pm

I wonder how much of a mofo it would be to tune that... If you do this and it turns out well, you will be gettin mad props from err'body!
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:08 pm

But if it goes kubang we all reserve the right to laugh. Just kidding. Good luck.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:11 pm

96_Juggernaut wrote:
I just look at it like this: The gain from the meth injection far outweighs the loss from 1.5psi drop that you might see. Just run an even smaller pulley to compensate smile. The other thing that was weighing on my mind is if you will see pressure drop due to the temp drop of the incoming air. I know from by experience with turbo vehicles in the past is that the more temp drop you have, the more the pressure will drop do to X amount of volume of air becoming more dense. I would imagine this same effect will take place with liquid intercooling.



Yup, as I said, the meth has an interesting effect of making up for any losses in rotor coating, and thats all before the cooling improvements.  So you will be good regardless even before taking into account the normal meth pros.  Just wanted you to be aware of the incorrect bits from their site.  And wanted you to be aware of what the coating on your rotors will do if you choose to leave it on.  As far as temp drop -> pressure drop, you will see a little, but it won't be as pronounced as you see in turbo setups.

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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:11 pm

Well im running half of those supporting mods but it's still going to be a little while before the meth because I need to get the Riv setup the way I want it before it goes on. But the beauty with meth / water injection is you don't need all those supporting mods, those are all mainly to reduce knock and allow you to run more boost. Meth injection is the biggest knock reducer you can do. The sooner my bonus goes through the sooner it will happen, I'm hoping within a few months.
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