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 FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?

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96_Juggernaut
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:15 pm

matt270avian wrote:
But if it goes kubang we all reserve the right to laugh. Just kidding. Good luck.

The only way I can see a "kubang" scenario with meth/water injection happening is if you are absolutely relying on it to keep everything safe and you end up running the reservoir dry and or have a flow stoppage, at which point your engine is on its own.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:17 pm

Can you update your sig to show us the mods you have done?
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Sir Psycho Sexy
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:28 pm

96_Juggernaut wrote:

matt270avian wrote:
But if it goes kubang we all reserve the right to laugh. Just kidding. Good luck.


The only way I can see a "kubang" scenario with meth/water injection happening is if you are absolutely relying on it to keep everything safe and you end up running the reservoir dry and or have a flow stoppage, at which point your engine is on its own.

Thats the scary thing to me. Its like if an IC pump goes out. Then youre basically running a lot more boost than your car can handle without the added cooling.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:30 pm

Sir Psycho Sexy wrote:


96_Juggernaut wrote:



matt270avian wrote:
But if it goes kubang we all reserve the right to laugh. Just kidding. Good luck.




The only way I can see a "kubang" scenario with meth/water injection happening is if you are absolutely relying on it to keep everything safe and you end up running the reservoir dry and or have a flow stoppage, at which point your engine is on its own.



Thats the scary thing to me. Its like if an IC pump goes out. Then youre basically running a lot more boost than your car can handle without the added cooling.


Ideally I don't want the motor to rely on it, rather just a fuel "enhancement". but realistically the gain would not be as much. gotta weigh the risk vs. gain. I plan on running a flow gauge so I know the pump is running.
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Sir Psycho Sexy
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:33 pm

Yup. A lot of extra gauges and youll be good. This is going to be one hell of an awesome project.
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:34 pm

Quote :
I just look at it like this: The gain from the meth injection far outweighs the loss from 1.5psi drop that you might see. Just run an even smaller pulley to compensate.

One thing I'd keep in mind, M90 being a roots blower is optimized for low RPM boost. It can only spin so fast. Above a certain RPM efficiency drops off fast. I think around ~15k RPM is pushing the limits of the M90's efficiency, and that 1.5 or 3 PSI could be a deal breaker when the blower isn't keeping up with your power needs. That's why the rotors are coated, and it's why they made a Gen V - to improve the M90's lack of efficiency. It's also why the L27 block + L67 head combo came to be. The higher static compression allowed the blower to build boost in the sweet spot with only a 3.8" pulley.

Not trying to discourage you, but there's a kind of boost paradox here. Meth injection quenches the knock, but then you won't have as much boost after the rotor coating is gone, so there's less knock (and less HP). Spin the blower faster to get back your boost, but then there's the efficiency limit. You can improve the engine's breathing for more power with less boost, but in doing so I think you'll find spark knock goes away on its own, so meth injection may not be necessary by that point.

I'd love to see someone devise a port-injected system into the manifold. Hmmm. I have an extra LIM sitting in the garage...

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
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th3fr4nchi5e
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:23 pm

My dad and I are planning on building our own meth setup as well. As of now, we plan on injecting through the EGR inlet on the supercharger and then in the LIM as well. The biggest roadblock right now will be getting all the parts for the setup and everything for realtime tuning for the Series I. Definitely with you on the Meth bandwagon Todd!
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:29 pm

Oh, and if I do this, I'm leaning toward water or a water/meth mix over 100% meth for the added cooling effect and lower cost.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:36 pm

Im on it. Using a throttle body spacer. Tad bit hood I know but it works.

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96_Juggernaut
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:19 pm

You got a good pump, probably the most critical part of the system. I like the throttle body spacer, what are u using for flow control ?
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:53 pm

Im using a DO5 nozzle which is 5 GPH set to come on at about 4.5 psi. Its just a devils own Universal Stage 1 kit. Nothing special but fairly cheap.
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96_Juggernaut
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:37 pm

When do u think it'll be ready to go ?
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:31 pm

Ive had it hooked up for about 6 months now without a tune. Not the wisest thing to do. My pcm is currently at sinister performance for a tune (i gota 96) so hopefully that will make it safer.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:43 am

Setton comin' out swingin' with a bad ass Riv!
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:51 am

I need to find this Riv......suspect
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:25 am

Good news for Aeroforce gauge users: you can use the output to drive a relay for controlling a meth/water injection system. Using any parameter, including throttle %, MAFF, boost, or vacuum. Relay kit is $55, or one could experiment with a common relay to trigger the mist.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4 Online
Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:27 am

AA wrote:
Good news for Aeroforce gauge users: you can use the output to drive a relay for controlling a meth/water injection system. Using any parameter, including throttle %, MAFF, boost, or vacuum. Relay kit is $55, or one could experiment with a common relay to trigger the mist.

Like a WOT Nitrous trigger on the throttle linkage?
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:45 am

Yes, if you use throttle % to drive it. But Aeroforce also lets you use boost, MAFF, or vac to trigger, similar to the Cooling Mist digital controller ($250). I think it can also combine parameters. Imo, boost triggering is a more accurate way to control the injection, since it better reflects engine load.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4 Online
Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:52 am

Oh no shit. So it actually uses the sensor positions to trigger it. That sounds awesome. I wonder how difficult it is to program. Is it one of those things where you just set the trigger to a throttle %, or at a certain MAF frequency? Or both? Say, set the trigger for 95% throttle at 95 g/s and above. That makes it wayyyyy easier. You'd just have to tune the PCM for the Meth above those parameters.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:26 pm

Is there anything that gauge CAN'T do? It's pricey but from what I'm reading it looks like it's worth it.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:18 pm

Im gonna spend the money and go with the snow performance stage 2 kit. Alot of money but worth it, injecting meth and water progressively is the best method in my opinion, the meth/water injected always matches the air flow. Otherwise you get a rich mixture that could bog down the motor at lower rpm, or be to lean at high rpm. Meth does not work like nitrous, its technically a "fuel" so the ratio always needs to match the demand of the engine.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:06 pm

A progressive controller is definitely the best thing you can do. They really shine with high psi turbos. Our low boost roots supercharger dont see quite the advantage as we achieve boost relatively quick. You should take a look at this http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/universal/352-voltage-stage-2a.html Its the same as the snow performance stage 2 minus the tank, except $80 cheaper. There is also a nozzle size calculator on the site. Having the appropriate nozzle is pretty important. The owner of devils own runs water/ meth on his GTP and is very knowledgeable with our engine. Sorry if I'm coming off as a sales rep for them. I just have had a good experience with them is all.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:50 am

Progressive controllers are nice I guess, but DevilsOwn's base controller is the "on/off" type. According to their site:

"Both styles work. We tell our customers that if budget is the primary concern, get the base injection kit. If you have a little more money to spend or want something with more user control, the progressive kit is worth it."

I can see the advantage of progressive spray to help prevent knock before it starts. Is there any drawback to spraying 100% starting at the point right before where KR develops?

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4 Online
96_Juggernaut
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:31 pm

I can see a non progressive system working to reduce knock, but on a very limited scale. When reading the setup instructions for the stage 2, they tell you to adjust the injection curve until you have smooth injection throughout the rpm range. There is no curve to adjust on the stage 1. Also they say that if the engine starts bogging it's because of combustion quench which is a result of to much meth/water being injected. There is no way to tune around this with a stage 1, you would just have to use a small enough nozzle that prevents this at lower rpm, but might not flow the most effective amount at near the top of the rpm range. This of course it what I imagine would be the case.


Last edited by 96_Juggernaut on Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:32 pm

Does an injection kit like this make an intercooler obsolete?
Benefits Of Water-Methanol Injection:
Increase horsepower safely by 10-15%
Lower air temperatures by 50-200+ degrees

Or would the redundancy just add to your HP #s?
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