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 Loud tapping in the engine

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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyMon 12 Aug 2013 - 19:44

It's rare to see lifters fail in our engines. Be sure to install per instructions. There may be pre-load settings with certain lifters.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
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Wolfmaster579
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyMon 12 Aug 2013 - 21:15

AA wrote:
It's rare to see lifters fail in our engines. Be sure to install per instructions. There may be pre-load settings with certain lifters.
unfortunately, the lifter i bought didnt come with instructions. I can look them up online i suppose and see what turns up there. There is also nothing in my manual on how to reinstall them.
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyTue 13 Aug 2013 - 12:01

Just lube them up on the outside with cam lube and drop them in.  Some people pump them up with oil, but I'd read that that gives a higher chance of messing up the torque when doing the rockers. Also some have reported that pre-pumping them with oil sometimes leads to bent pushrods, but I'm not sure why.  The times I've done them I just use plenty of cam lube and assemble them empty.  It will clatter for a few seconds and then quiet down.  Some people go to the extreme and disable their ignition so they can crank the engine over a bunch to get them pumped up but I haven't ever bothered.

Also you mentioned "lifter" not "lifters."  The GM lifter for the 3800 is used on many other GM engines.  The part itself has gone through a number of very slight revisions over the years and that part just replaces the same part in the lookup and cross refrence database.  This all saying that the preload specs room, roller enclosure, and cup height have all very slightly changed.  Your new one while looking visually the same will be just a tiny bit different from the stockers.  For best results I'd reccomend replacing all of them.  While only replacing one or a few will probally work, but since you are in there you might as well make sure they are all matched and do all of them so you never need to go in and do one again.

Ninja edit: And preload on our engine is controlled by pushrod length. Running stock rockers and lifters; the only preload difference is that the preload will be very slightly higher with the new lifters with slightly larger room for "preload slop" error.

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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyTue 13 Aug 2013 - 21:51

Thanks Andrew I will try it out that way. Oddly enough though, the new "lifter" I bought (to see if the push rod seat pushed down like the ones i removed from my engine) was already filled with oil. That is why it didnt compress on its spring. So when I buy the rest of the lifters, and I do intend to replace them all, I will not have to worry about pre-soaking them.

On a side note: I will be replacing the cylinder heads as well. I was extra careful to keep all the dirt from entering the intake valve holes in the heads when I removed the intake manifold. But when I looked at the valves in the head through the intake holes, i saw several chunks and lots of sludge on the valves. I figure it would be easier to get remanufactured heads. RockAuto.com has them for $220 each and it drops to $170 after the core charge.

This project of rebuilding wont really be able to start until late September. I only work on the Riv on the weekends and I have a lot of parts to clean before reinstalling them (intake manifold, valve covers, rockers & pivots, pushrods, throttle body, etc).

I want to thank everyone for all your help thus far. It's made things a lot easier. This project is bringing me closer to my car, and all in all is a great educational experience for me. I can't wait until she's all back together.
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptySun 25 Aug 2013 - 18:02

Alrighty, so i finally got the rear cylinder head removed. I drained and dropped the oil pan too. Lots of residue in the oil pan. Small chunks of stuff too. And there is that copper color I mentioned before. I even found a spring??!! It was laying right by the drain screw inside the pan. I hope that spring doesnt belong to anything. Haynes manual doesnt say anything about it and there is nothing with the oil pump screen for it to attach to. Either way cleaning the engine and parts has begun. Can't wait to start buying parts.

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LARRY70GS
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptySun 25 Aug 2013 - 20:11

I think you spun a rod bearing.  I was afraid of that but didn't want to say so. Copper is wiped bearing(s)

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyMon 26 Aug 2013 - 21:32

Spun a rod bearing? Crap....I looked it up. Watched a few videos of spun rod bearings. Every bearing has a wiggle to it. Some more then others. Shouldnt be too hard to replace though. So long as it didnt gouge the crankshaft. My fingers are crossed for that one. That would explain the knocking sound, the bouncing oil pressure ive had for so long, and copper in the oil pan.

Any idea on the spring i found in the oil pan??
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LARRY70GS
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyMon 26 Aug 2013 - 22:03

Not sure what that is, maybe part of the timing chain tensioner? You'll be very lucky if there is no damage to the crank. Then there is all that metal in the oiling system. Don't think you will get away cheap here. Getting a replacement engine might be a better option for you.

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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Wolfmaster579
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyMon 26 Aug 2013 - 22:37

The rest of the engine is clean hoenstly. I will check to make sure that spring doesnt attach to anything. I am giving the engine interior an oil bath and scrub down. I have plenty of time to do such. my wife is in no hurry for me to get my Buick done. I hope some other people have some idea of what the spring could be. I will email a couple engine remanufacturers. maybe they can help me out.

The worst of the metal in the oil system would be in the oil pump. there isnt anywhere else for there to be oil i don't think. Considering it would cost the same for a bare block as it would to just buy the parts i need, ill just stick with the parts and hope for the best. Honestly, I wont know until this weekend how the crank looks. I'll have to make a decision then. *biting off more then you can chew* yeah that about sums that up. lol
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LARRY70GS
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyTue 27 Aug 2013 - 9:16

Oil is pumped through the lifter galleys and to every bearing in the engine. Metal from the wasted bearings is through out the engine, not just in the pump. Look at the crank first. I'd want to flush and clean the whole block if it was me.

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyTue 27 Aug 2013 - 11:51

I agree with Larry. If the bearings are shot, it could be that after the first one failed, the metal shavings worked their way through the system and caused the others to go. Your crank needs replaced or refinished. Might as well do a complete rebuild at this point.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
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Wolfmaster579
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyTue 27 Aug 2013 - 19:48

Alright guys, i removed the Connecting Rod Bearings. The pictures below show the following:

    Picture 1: bearing cover for Cylinder 6 (top) and 5 (bottom)
    Picture 2: bearing cover for Cylinder 5
    Picture 3: kind of fuzzy, crankshaft shown for cylinders 6 and 5. Hard to tell from the picture, but each and every crankshaft area i expeosed is smooth, no scratches whatsoever.
    Picture 4: all bearing covers, Cylinder 6 (top) and works way down to Cylinder 1 (bottom)
    Picture 5: close-up of a bearing. this is what the bearings look like. all smooth. Cylinder 5 had a scratch you can see in picture 2 but that was it.

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So this is what i found so far. The connecting rods had a very small wiggle. Could it just be the bearings have a small amount of wear to them to cause the wiggle? Could it be the crankshaft bearings that would have caused the copper residue? Is it possible to have a spun crankshaft bearing? And finally, Larry is it possible to flush the block and how can i go about it? I would really love to do that if its possible.
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LARRY70GS
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyTue 27 Aug 2013 - 20:21

The second picture is down to the copper. Doesn't look like you spun them, but they are worn. I know of no way to flush a block. Consult a machine shop. Might not be as much as you think.

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyTue 27 Aug 2013 - 21:00

Just got an email back from Marshall Engine Remanufacturer. The spring is the Timing Chain Tensioner.
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LARRY70GS
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyWed 28 Aug 2013 - 8:40

Wolfmaster579 wrote:
Just got an email back from Marshall Engine Remanufacturer. The spring is the Timing Chain Tensioner.
happy What do I win?

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyWed 28 Aug 2013 - 10:29

One fresh merit point!

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
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deekster_caddy
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyWed 28 Aug 2013 - 12:02

Time to pull the main caps. You can rotate the bearings out without actually removing the crank. I think you'll know as soon as you pull the cap off though.

Pro-tip - don't mix up the caps or their orientation! I jumbled a bunch of rod caps the first engine I disassembled and it took forever to figure out why it wouldn't rotate when I put it back together!!!

The rod journals look like normal wear to me - no damage there. Let's see the mains!
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyWed 28 Aug 2013 - 22:05

Okey Dokey fellas. You asked for the mains. Fairly simple uninstall there. Here they are.

     Picture 1: Crankshaft flywheel side
    Picture 2: Obviously some wear to the flywheel side bearing. there was a couple pock marks and a nice scratch in it too.
    Picture 3: Crankshaft timing chain side. the crankshaft upper main bearing on the timing chain side left a journal mark on the crankshaft you can see in the picture. But its smooth all the way across and around.
    Picture 4: The lower main bearing for the timing chain side is worn to the copper. probably had something to do with the timing chain tensioner spring falling out. the cranksaft would have sit just that much more on the lower bearing without the tensioner in place.

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I will eventually get to the timing cover and remove it. I might as well get the crankshaft out then. The chain tensioner is a very old design. All the ones i find to replace it look completely different. But the new design doesn't allow the spring to pop off! Any thoughts on checking the camshaft bearings then? I still don't think that all that copper residue just came from the bearings i removed. Not being able to just pull the block is making this an interesting project. With my wife giving me free reign to take all the time i need (which helps me relieve some stress) I am actually having fun with this.
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyWed 28 Aug 2013 - 22:28

I would roll in new bearings and leave the crank alone. That's definitely not your problem. I do wonder where the copper is coming from though. It's come from somewhere!

Are you sure those particles are copper chunks? How big are they?

Could that be cam lobe material?
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Wolfmaster579
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyThu 29 Aug 2013 - 6:50

This is what i am asking myself honestly. In the oil, the copper is just miniscule flakes. In the oil pan, it is kind of a paste that is about 1/32 to 1/16 thick covering the bottom. I'm thoroughly confused. Maybe this engine was worked on before and just not completely cleaned out? I don't know. All i know is when I bought the car 5 years ago, it didn't tap, the spark plugs were hot but very clean, and the engine and tranny were running very well.

My co-worker is lending me his inside/outside micrometer so I can take some measurements and see where the most wear is. Since i have the chance, I think it'd be worth replacing the piston rings. Co-worker told me about knurling the pistons too. I don't think that i'll do it, but I think all pistons ought to be done that way. It would really help the oiling process.

No matter, I will keep tearing down and get this engine cleaned out as best I can before rebuilding it. Hope I can get it to the rebuild point before it starts getting too cold outside.
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyThu 29 Aug 2013 - 11:17

Knurling pistons wasn't done for the oiling so much as to "expand" and old, worn piston back to the original bore diameter. This was done on a knurling machine that pressed the diamond pattern into the side. If you just machine in the knurl using a lathe, you won't get that expansion. Anyway, they don't do it much anymore because it's lots of work and might as well buy new pistons. Imo, non-knurled pistons stay lubed with oil just fine.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyThu 29 Aug 2013 - 11:29

The wear on the bearings explains the silty buildup/residue but not the chunks. Any chance you can put those chunks in a glass jar with some solvent so we can see what they really are?

Perhaps from the timing chain tensioner getting chewed up somehow? Maybe take a close look at the timing gears for missing corners?
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyThu 29 Aug 2013 - 14:16

deekster_caddy wrote:
The wear on the bearings explains the silty buildup/residue but not the chunks. Any chance you can put those chunks in a glass jar with some solvent so we can see what they really are?

Perhaps from the timing chain tensioner getting chewed up somehow? Maybe take a close look at the timing gears for missing corners?
Derek
I can seriously consider the black plastic chunks being part of the timing chain tensioner. I saw the tensioner last night after I removed the main bearing on the pulley side. All that is left of it is the stud that connects it to the engine block and a moveable metal plate that I assume had the plastic on it to dampen or press against the timing chain. The spring would of fit behind the metal plate.
The chunks I found in the oil pan were mostly tiny. Almost like shavings. I did find one larger piece that was the size of a marble. I won't be able to check the timing gears thoroughly enough until I remove the timing cover. I am hoping to get to that this weekend. Ill take more pictures then.
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptyThu 29 Aug 2013 - 15:02

Hopefully that's all you are in for then! New timing chain and tensioner, roll in new main and rod bearings and prime the oil pump! And do an oil change after 200 miles or so... wink
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PostSubject: Damned crankshaft bolt   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 2 EmptySun 1 Sep 2013 - 15:07

I CANT GET THIS DAMNED CRANKSHAFT BOLT LOOSE!!! My 1/2" impact drill isnt strong enough, i can't get a hold of a strap wrench, i tried using a nylon strap which tightened on itself and used my rubber mallet on the breaker bar to try and pop it loose, no good. Everything is telling me it loosens counterclockwise. i can't block the pulley any other way. I'm frustrated and at a loss. I need ideas people!
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