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 Loud tapping in the engine

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AA
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Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 01, 2013 2:26 pm

Here is some info that should help. If you scroll down, LARRY70GS shares a trick for removing the bolt:

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t1535-write-up-removing-the-crank-pulley-harmonic-balancer

_________________
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Wolfmaster579
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 01, 2013 2:39 pm

I tried to start the engine. battery was dead, jumped it, and considering my engine is otherwise completely apart, my start motor would not kick on. i dont know why. i didnt disconnect the starter so i just dont know.
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Wolfmaster579
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 01, 2013 4:51 pm

just so everyone knows I got that POS off finally. Here's how: it involved vise gripping the flywheel, a ratchet strap, a piece of bar from my weight bench's leg lifter, a rubber mallet and a 20 oz framing hammer. I broke the piece of bar the first time (all good i dont use my leg lift add-on for my bench anyways) but when it was shorter it held up better. I put the ratchet strap's hook in the screw hole for the bar (which was slipped over the breaker bar). Using the ratchet strap like a come along on an upper stabilizing bar in the engine, i tightened it til i couldnt anymore. Then with the bar in an easier to reach position, i wailed on the end of the bar with the hammers. took a couple times and it broke loose. Never felt so much satisfaction in my life. 4.5 hours it took to come up with that plan.

I didnt even have to have a puller for the pulley. It came off by hand with ease. Just slid right off.
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LARRY70GS
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 01, 2013 7:13 pm

An alternate method is to feed some nylon rope into the spark plug hole, and rotate the crank so that the piston gets blocked from going to TDC. That gently locks the motor so that you can get that bolt out. Not sure what the spec for the 3800 is, but on the 455, that bolt gets tightened to 200 ft. lbs minimum.

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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Wolfmaster579
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptyMon Sep 02, 2013 8:22 pm

Alrighty, so engine cleaning has started. I removed the timing cover. I stupidly realized that without removing the engine block, the crankshaft isn't coming out. With that, I can't really get to the camshaft bearings. I think i will squirt lots of oil up around the camshaft bearings to help clean them off. Oddly enough the oil dripping from the engine block is clean, I'll flush out any oil holes with the oil can I have. The oil pump outer gear was a bit worn as well, so i'll be getting a rebuild kit. I'm getting new cam and crankshaft sensors as well. And I swear that timing cover main seal was super glued. It took forever to remove.
     I'm not sure how, but somehow the tiny play that was in the balance shaft is gone. The camshaft slipped out a bit when i removed its outer timing chain gear. When I lined up the inner camshaft gear and replaced it in its bearings the balance bar spun smoothly and no rattle! We'll see how it goes when the whole timing set is installed.
     I am really excited to get everything put back together, but I have to remember to take my time and be patient. I don't want to forget anything or screw anything up. I'm keeping tabs on how much it's costing. Ill show before and after pics and overall price when it's all done. Thank you all for your help so far.

It will be a long painstaking wait to get the parts ordered. I am limited to what I save up. So it'll be a few months to finish it up. Maybe it'll be a christmas present to myself to turn her over once again. smile
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Wolfmaster579
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 14, 2013 10:50 pm

Another update:

Saying christmas present was a bit of a high hope. With the amount I am allowed to spend every month, birthday present, in March, is more realistic.

As of now, the timing set has been replaced, I am waiting to install the new chain dampener until i get the new main crank bearings measured for and installed. I have a question about that. I installed the new crank sprocket and it had a tiny wiggle. I didn't like that too much. So I reinstalled the original crank sprocket with the new timing chain and cam sprocket. The original doesn't wiggle at all. I hope that won't cause any problems mix the new with the old.

I have just got myself a 2-3 inch and 3-4 inch micrometer. The cam, crank and knock sensors are bought. I have a 400 grit flex hone and flex hone oil coming as well as a ridge reamer and ring compressor. Im using my dremel tool with a brass cleaning bits to help clean in areas i can't hit with the nylon, brass, or steel scrub brushes. I want everything very clean. Timing cover has its new main seal installed. All the leftover gasket material has been removed for the heads and timing cover. I will be flushing out the block's cooling ports because some gasket material got into it. I've also removed the front and rear exhaust manifolds. I have found a hairline crack in both manifolds where the middle pipe meets the main pipe. I'll have it welded up before reinstalling. Valve train pieces have been cleaned and valve covers are striped and ready for primering and painting. Going with Dupli-Color's Ruby Red Engine Enamel. Ill test it out first and if it isn't dark enough I will go with a gray of some sort.

So that is about all I have done recently. I keep reading up on everything to make sure I'm installing it all correctly. I love sneaking out to the garage to do a lil more work. smile I'll keep you all posted as I move along.
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Wolfmaster579
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PostSubject: Think I need a Connecting Rod   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptyMon Sep 16, 2013 12:10 pm

Hey everyone. I will have to upload a picture of what I am talking about later tonight. I have a connecting rod I am looking to replace in my engine rebuild. I forgot to mention this before, but as I was removing the pistons from the engine, I noticed a possible issue. The rod's bearing journal on the actual rod, not the cap, seemed worn. Most of the bearing journals are squared off and tight. This one looks like it has chamfered corners. It allows the bearing to wiggle a bit.

My big issue is that I cannot find connecting rods anywhere. I can find pistons, rings, bearings bolts, but no rods. Any help finding them would be much appreciated. Again I will post the pictures later tonight to show you what I am talking about. Visuals can answer a lot of questions.
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Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptyMon Sep 16, 2013 12:15 pm


I wonder if anyone makes high performance lightweight rods for your 3.8?

Carillo makes some for the Moto Guzzi that are said to be tougher, but lighter so the engine spins up faster. If someone makes some like that for your engine, might be a good time to get a set for the 3.8

Al
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Wolfmaster579
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptyMon Sep 16, 2013 6:44 pm

it'd be nice if I could just find anything, regardless of if they are high performance or not. I don't want to reinstall this connecting rod just to have a new bearing wear out fast. Still have to take pictures. They will be posted in a couple hours. Ill have more free time then.
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LARRY70GS
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Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptyMon Sep 16, 2013 7:21 pm


_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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Wolfmaster579
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptyMon Sep 16, 2013 8:29 pm

I will be sure to check that out Larry. So here are the photos I promised.

Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 DSCF0893

This is the good rod, Cylinder 5. See how the journal sits nice and tight?

Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 DSCF0903

This is a bit fuzzy. Cylinder 3. By far the worst rod. The bearing journal is pretty worn. Should I consider a new rod, what do you think?
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptyMon Sep 16, 2013 10:15 pm

That's interesting. I don't think it would move around too much. Those chamfers look intentional, not worn. As long as the bearings plastigage okay I would use it.
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Wolfmaster579
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 5:38 am

Never heard of a plastigauge. Is it something i should use as I reassemble the engine? I wanna make sure I rebuild this correctly. Anyone else think this is a purposeful chamfer?
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 9:09 am

Plastigage is a pre-assembly check. It's a little plastic 'wire' you put between the bearing and polished crank surface, then you torque your bolts down, then take the cap back off. The plastic 'squishes' to a certain size. You measure that size and then you know how much clearance is in the assembled piece. If you are reusing a crank without machining it, and putting in new bearings, it will tell you if the crank is excessively worn.

I found a youtube video that explains how to use it. You can turn the sound off:


embedded doesn't look right. Here's the link.

https://youtu.be/7rhkk1Ti4AY
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Wolfmaster579
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 5:39 pm

deekster_caddy wrote:
Plastigage is a pre-assembly check. It's a little plastic 'wire' you put between the bearing and polished crank surface, then you torque your bolts down, then take the cap back off. The plastic 'squishes' to a certain size. You measure that size and then you know how much clearance is in the assembled piece. If you are reusing a crank without machining it, and putting in new bearings, it will tell you if the crank is excessively worn.

I found a youtube video that explains how to use it. You can turn the sound off:


embedded doesn't look right. Here's the link.

https://youtu.be/7rhkk1Ti4AY
Wouldnt it also be alright to check it with a micrometer. I was going to take O.D. measurements of the crank at each bearing point and then taking the I.D. of each cap and compare what is available on the market. That can tell me exactly what bearings I need making sure everything is tight enough. I will look into getting this though.
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptyWed Sep 18, 2013 7:20 am

Did you try a GM dealer? 3800s were installed new less than 10 years ago, worst case is they should have a pile of engine parts in, say, Martinsburg.

Wolfmaster579 wrote:
Hey everyone. I will have to upload a picture of what I am talking about later tonight. I have a connecting rod I am looking to replace in my engine rebuild. I forgot to mention this before, but as I was removing the pistons from the engine, I noticed a possible issue. The rod's bearing journal on the actual rod, not the cap, seemed worn. Most of the bearing journals are squared off and tight. This one looks like it has chamfered corners. It allows the bearing to wiggle a bit.

My big issue is that I cannot find connecting rods anywhere. I can find pistons, rings, bearings bolts, but no rods. Any help finding them would be much appreciated. Again I will post the pictures later tonight to show you what I am talking about. Visuals can answer a lot of questions.
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptyWed Sep 18, 2013 10:18 am

Of course you can check it with a mic. But that doesn't get you the 'real' clearance inside the bearing surface like plastigage will.

BTW You don't _NEED_ to do it if you don't think the crank is worn. And if you find one is a little 'loose', there's not much you can really do about it. It's just good information to have. It's like an insurance check before you go reassemble the whole thing... it would suck to get it all back together and be losing oil pressure because one rod journal was worn significantly more than the others etc...
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PostSubject: buying the right rod bearing   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptyWed Sep 25, 2013 9:56 pm

Just got micrometers and took measurements of my rod bearing crankshaft journals. They measure between 2.2491" to 2.2494". Max on the standard set of bearings shaft diameter is 2.2495". That would leave .0001" of oil clearance. The minimum oil clearance for the standard bearing is .0007". I don't know what the needed oil clearance is for this engine. No manuals I have state what it should be. I am assuming my crankshaft has little to no wear from factory settings. I obviously can't buy oversized bearings because I can't machine the crank. It can't be removed from the block when the block is still intact.

So im asking, should I just stick with the standard size bearings?

I still have to get the housing bore sizes to determine if oversized bearings are needed. But somehow, I seriously doubt there is that much wear on them either. This engine is just full of surprises. It had need of some new gaskets, timing pieces, and bearings, but overall, it wasn't in as bad of shape as I thought. I'm gaining more and more respect for these 3.8L engines.
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptyThu Sep 26, 2013 9:53 am

That's why you are supposed to check the clearance with plastigage - the bearings change shape a little when the cap bolts are torqued down. Measurements alone do not tell the whole story.

Based on what you've said so far, I would just stick with a stock bearing size. You can't go to a .0010 over bearing if the crank isn't being machined. If there is no scoring or other damage to the crank, you are probably good to go.

I still say you should pick up some plastigage though, just to be sure.
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptyThu Sep 26, 2013 11:59 am

Don't worry Derek. I plan to get some plastigage at the Advanced Auto Parts, 5 minutes from my house. They have a product that is $4.49. I just want to make sure all my measurements are taken and accurate before buying any bearings.
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptySun Oct 06, 2013 1:20 pm

Plastigage bought, mains are all cleaned, and pistons are just about all cleaned up. But now I am running into a problem. I measured the ring widths (if the ring were laying on a table, it's the amount the ring sits above the table) and it is .058 for the top two rings. It's pretty standard across the board for all my upper rings. Upon looking at a new ring set on RockAuto, AdvanceAuto, Napa and Autozone the width of the upper piston rings is 5/64 or .0781. Now I am assuming that the width I am measuring is the same as the one labeled on the new parts. The groove for the upper piston rings on my pistons only allows for .062. No where I know sells them in anything other then full sets, and I'll have to special order them in and pay for them no matter where I shop. I'm really afraid that the rings wont fit into the groove and i'll be stuck with an unusable set.
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptySun Oct 06, 2013 4:17 pm

This is on the '88, right? Any chance the motor was replaced with something newer (or older) over the years? Are you talking about the thickness of the rings or the end gap? You aren't seeing a gap spec and thinking it's the piston groove width spec, right?

Just making sure. I can't imagine why they would spec a different thickness of the ring. Have you checked totalseal rings? (totalseal.com)
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptySun Oct 06, 2013 5:53 pm

The motor wasnt changed. Everything else I have bought over the time i've had this has been a perfect fit. It matches my make model year engine type and specs. So I know it isn't that. I am talking about the thickness of the rings. I'd say end gap if I meant that. All it says in the new ring specs is:

Diameter (inch) 3.8000
Cylinders 06
Top Width .0780
Top Part No. BT10045
2nd Width .0780
2nd Part No. RBT10035
3rd Width .1875
3rd Part No. SS50U267

I measured the groove myself with a feeler gauge and got .062 for the top groove and .061 for the middle groove. Something just doesnt add up. I may just have to buy a new set and try my luck. I can't find anything on that TotalSeal site that matches my specs.
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptySun Oct 06, 2013 8:13 pm

Just making sure! I know you are aware of what you are doing, but it's hard to tell the level of somebody's experience online. It sure sounds like the ones you have are different than the ones you are finding to order.

I'm thinking you want to start with a phone call to clevite or speed pro etc, whoever you are going to buy from. I would trust your measurements over their catalog, and a quick phone call may resolve the issue or they can give you the right part number. In my experiences the order support at those two companies has been excellent. Just explain the differences you found between the 'stock' listing and what you have in your hand and they'll be able to tell you for sure. I'm having terrible luck with the OEM's online catalogs.
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PostSubject: Re: Loud tapping in the engine   Loud tapping in the engine - Page 3 EmptyMon Oct 14, 2013 5:47 pm

Alright Fellas, this is what I have come up with so far.....

I have recently emailed Clevite/MAHLE and Sealed Power/Speed Pro about my Piston Rings. Today I got an answer back from Sealed Power. The technician gave me some part numbers which I have cross examined to see what the measurements are. He recommended #E352K, but unfortunately, this is for a four cylinder vehicle and according to the spec widths is still .078" or 2mm thick. I need a Top and Second ring of about .059" or 1.5mm (which is what the tech said #E352Ks were). I think maybe he made a typo of some sort. There is an 800 number to call. I will give them a try tomorrow. The other two sets he mentioned were the ones I have already tried, the #E369K and another with the same specs #E434K. Tech also said that GM used three different ring set for the 3.8L V-6 that year.

I am anxiously waiting for the email back from Clevite, or MAHLE which i am always redirected to. I cannot find a number to call for tech support on the matter. So if anyone can give me a number to call, that would be dandy.

I certainly hope I can find something. As of right now this is my one and only hold up. I really can't use my old rings. A couple were damaged while being removed (they aren't perfect circles anymore), and they are obviously worn a bit. If anyone cares to try their luck, I need rings with widths under .061" and a 3.8" cylinder bore.
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