hard brake pedal and can`t start engine.

Hi everyone here.

I have my display `99 Riviera ,which i drive about.....every 2 months .Last time i started the engine was back in January/February. It started pretty easy with no problem. I moved it a couple of feet so the tires won`t get flat spotted. Also no problem......

Now (today).... i tried to start the engine NOTHING, tried to jump it.....aslo NOTHING.....plus now i`m having a hard brake pedal ????? the engine couldn`t spin nor fire, and why am I havin` a hard brake pedal ???

Do you all of you Riviera people have any idea what`s going on or..... i should just tow it to the shop ?

Thanx.

The engine can't turn over at all? Can you do it by hand?

As for the brakes, perhaps the piston in the master cylinder has seized? Seems more likely than all of the brake calipers seizing at once.

It's strange that both things happened "at once," but I've had more unlikely events coordinate to ruin my day. It happens.

Dang.....
Yeah I tried to jump the engine but it didn't turn over???....
How do I turn it by hand?
If I have a seized piston in the master cylinder how do I fix it or just replace it.? Haha...
Horrible a?

See if you can grab the main accessory belt and rock the crankshaft a little. It shouldn't be too hard to turn, if it were that would be wasted horsepower and lower fuel economy. If you can't do anything, that's a bad sign. Then take off the belts and see if there's a bolt on the crankshaft you can get a breaker bar on. If you still can't budge it then you're fooked. I'm going to guess that it's not locked up though and your problem is going to be the starter relay. You can follow the fun adventures I had testing and replacing mine here

It's also possible the problem could be a bad crankshaft position sensor, although you will usually have the car die a couple times before it goes. The fuel pump could also be the problem, but I'm not sure if the computer is programmed to keep the engine from cranking if the pump is dead or not. I would test the starter relay first. Mine gave me some warnings before finally going but I thought it was just the security system running the battery down.

As for the master cylinder, I haven't messed with the Riv's but I took a look at the one from my Charger and said NOPE, I'm replacing with new. They can be rebuilt but mine had a circlip holding the piston in which I couldn't remove. It wasn't one of the nice ones that had holes for circlip pliers to plug into. Maybe the Riviera's is easier to work with.

If you have to replace it, I've read that the master cylinder has to be filled and bled before installing in the system, or you will spend forever bleeding the system with it all together. I haven't gotten that far yet though, but something to look into if you have to do the job.

I guess you could first look around the brake pedal and make sure nothing is jamming it up.

Do you have fluid in the brake reservoir? It is an odd thing to have fail.

stan wrote:

Hi everyone here.

I have my display `99 Riviera ,which i drive about.....every 2 months .Last time i started the engine was back in January/February. It started pretty easy with no problem. I moved it a couple of feet so the tires won`t get flat spotted. Also no problem......

Now (today).... i tried to start the engine NOTHING, tried to jump it.....also NOTHING.....plus now I'm having a hard brake pedal ????? the engine couldn`t spin nor fire, and why am I havin` a hard brake pedal ???

Do you all of you Riviera people have any idea what`s going on or..... i should just tow it to the shop ?

Thanx.

Not sure what's going on but did you try:

- You tried to jump it? OK. More on this later. We'll be checking fuses and stuff.
- I hope you don't have a rodent problem; you might want to inspect the wiring.
- Hard brake pedal can simply be that for whatever reason the vac canister for the power brakes leaked down while you were parked. This makes the brakes very very stiff, almost impossible to use but still usable. If you have one, you can use a MityVac (with adapters) to check the canister (pull the valve off the canister). If the canister holds vac, replace the valve. They are cheap.
- More on brakes: yeah maybe the MC froze but I kinda doubt it unless, well, you never changed brake fluid in 22 years. Troubleshoot it - you'll figure it out. (I repeat - with no vac in reserve the brake pedal is very very stiff) If you do have to replace the MC, filling and bleeding it isn't tough provided you've got an installed bench vise or a portable bench such as the Black & Decker WorkMate 225 or 425 that you can steady with your foot while pressing the MC piston.
- Back to the jumping. Make sure the Riv's battery is actually good - quick check is to measure the voltage. If below about 12.2V you definitely have trouble. If below 10.-something you have a bridged (shorted) cell, which will defy you to even jump start it. If the battery is low to begin with all kinds of start/drivability problems ensue.
- In some instances jump starting these cars will cause failure (can damage the PCM). There is something in the owners' manual about this, and a procedure. That said, what I actually do is use another car to charge the battery in the Riv, then attempt to start it. If the Riv's battery is good, it takes about 10-15 minutes to get enough of a charge on it. You actually can tell by listening to the idle on the car doing the charging - it will lighten up as the Riv's battery charges. If on the other hand you try to jump start the Riv with a running vehicle connected to it, you may get (you are likely to get) power transients that will damage the BCM or the PCM. (Ahem - this is why my Riv thinks it is a Bonneville. BCM was killed in a jumpstart attempt; car started but then all kinds of sh-t ensued; dealer replaced the BCM with a later Bonneville because Riv-coded BCMs were obsoleted. The Bonnie BCM has a few more minor features...)
- More on the battery - I pull the rear seat to check terminals (although I find that with maintenance - meaning cleaning terminals and applying a little tune up grease or NoAlOx or petroleum jelly every couple three years, there's really nothing to see there) and I make sure the ground connection at the battery to the car body is good and clean (truth - this actually was an issue for me once). It is exposed to the elements, under the car, and you oughta take it apart and clean it every so often just because.
- You might have a coincidental (coincidence = not necessarily from sitting) problem - that's largely what Jack's post is about.

( now I'm actually in front of the comp typing this, not speaking on mic while driving . phone won't be changing my words)
Wow....Jack the R and albertj... thank you for the enormous amount of info on what could be the problem ( problems) . Well these cars are getting old and the outdated a?
The car is in brand new factory condition . The engine runs and sounds like a swiss watch and is quiet like a new car. 32K original miles. Can't tell it's a 23 year car. Don't understand what's going on??

- Jack- went to rock the main accessory belt - could turn it just a little. It can budge but not too much.
- yep it also could be the starter relay. Damn...
- don't think it's a bad crankshaft sensor but...
- I think I heard the fuel pump right before tried to start the engine but.... not even one crank.
- on repairing/ replacing the master cylinder I think I can at least try. There are so many clips on YouTube I can follow
- forgot to check the brake fluid but I'll go out soon check.

- albertj- yeah everything is so strange and hard to understand.
- no rodent problem for sure.
- also chocked the ground .Also no leaks.
- could be frozen MC if the brake pedal is hard. Yes.
- checked the battery before I tried to start. Is was almost 12V but not quite . I keep the battery disconnected since I'm not driving the car every day. You say even jumping a vehicle can damage the main computer? Dang..... should've used another car for jumping mine. I use one of these portable AUDEW jump starters. Pretty good btw and powerful.
- have to put grease on the terminals for sure.

Well I'm no mechanic and this is incomprehensible to me, happening at the same time. But........we have to fix it somehow.
All right brothers in moments like this, this is the BEST gift that anybody could've given me. Will keep you informed on the progress.
Greatly appreciated

If you can budge the engine at all, then I think you're o.k. on that front.

When I was doing tests to diagnose my starter relay problem, I accidentally jumped the starter motor a few times.  I don't recall exactly what I did, maybe AlbertJ can give you specific instructions - but I did something like bridging the postive (or negative?) contact on the starter to the frame (radiator support?) with a screwdriver.  At any rate it is possible to bypass the ignition circuit and test the starter motor, which would tell you that the starter motor is good, the battery is good (which it probably is, although they can show full voltage and still be bad), and the motor isn't seized (although we've pretty much ruled that out).

I haven't had to service a power brake system, so AlbertJ could be right about the vacuum leak.  I hope that turns out to be the case.  My master cylinder problem came from a slow leak, probably from an old drum brake cylinder, that let all the fluid drain out while the car was stored.  I don't recall it locking the piston in the master cylinder though.  If you can budge the brake pedal, than the piston isn't locked, so we can rule that out.  If you can't budge it at all, I don't know what else could lock the pedal in place.

Jack the R wrote:

...I haven't had to service a power brake system, so AlbertJ could be right about the vacuum leak.  I hope that turns out to be the case.  My master cylinder problem came from a slow leak, probably from an old drum brake cylinder, that let all the fluid drain out while the car was stored.  I don't recall it locking the piston in the master cylinder though.  If you can budge the brake pedal, than the piston isn't locked, so we can rule that out.  If you can't budge it at all, I don't know what else could lock the pedal in place.

When a 'modern' car loses power assist on the brakes then the pedal is very hard to move. I can press a lot of weight with my legs. I am definitely not a Charles Atlas, but I did entertain my Nautilus trainer at the local Y by pressing the entire stack on the leg machine in such a way as to bounce it so it would sound like a pile driver. I don't do that any more (childish showoff sh-t) but the point is, when the vac booster quite I would have difficulty pressing brake pedal hard enough to get any pedal movement let alone stopping power. In general, a person needs to apply around 70 lbs of force with their foot on the brake pedal to stop a car. However, disc brakes usually need roughly 800-1,200 psi of force at the calipers to make the car stop. This is why pretty much all cars nowadays with disc brakes have power brakes. Drum brakes have much greater area swept by the shoes than discs do with the pads, and take advantage of wheel rotation to create braking force, so with modest mechanical leverage at the pedal a driver could stop a car (think 1964 Plymouth Valiant) with that 70 or so pounds of force. From HOT ROD article on braking:

"A more modern design, and one that is still in use today, is the self-energizing drum brake developed by Bendix. With this style of brake the shoes are hooked together at the bottom by a spring and adjuster and are held to the backing plate by a pin, spring, and retainer. Mounted this way they are free to move slightly on the backing plate. When self-energizing brakes are applied the front brake shoe makes contact with the revolving drum and tries to rotate with it, that movement is transferred through the adjuster to the rear shoe, pushing it into the drum with increased force. Self-energizing drum brakes are still commonly used, most often on the rear of trucks with discs on the front." (https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/0912cct-drum-disc-brake-selection/ on 23 May 2022)

You get **none** of that (inertia transfer) with disc brakes, so you have to use a vacuum or hydraulic power booster to get the required force. Or you have to push d-mn hard and even then the stopping distances are, well, ridiculous.

I am NOT saying the MC is or is not jammed. I am merely saying that it takes so much force to operate disc brakes when everything but the booster is working properly that no sh-t it feels like the MC is jammed if you lose the boost and try to stop a moving car with the service brakes.

Albertj

Hmm, when my bad crankshaft position sensor was causing the car to die, I don't recall the brakes being harder to use. The steering got a lot harder than I would want to use on a daily basis. Maybe I let the car coast to a stop though - I wish I could recall that.

I can attest to the effectiveness of the "self-energizing drum," although the pedal is not rock hard when the vehicle is stopped.

Manual disc brakes appear to be the preference for sports cars, so they can't be all that bad. I'll find out in a few months (hopefully) when I get my Charger done with its manual disc brake conversion. Curiously enough, it will now be part Riviera, using 6th gen Riviera calipers in the back.

Spoke with my brother today . He came over to look at it and said , not to worry too much about it , and that we can try this and that but his advice is not to fuck with these cars. We have to tow it over the shop and that is best a pro to look at it.
I myself don't know what to do.
Yeah I have a very hard brake pedal, and something tells me it's in the MC.....jammed likely. Plus I have to change the battery too.
All of this happened at the same time??!!..
Still reading and searching for info on line...
Or....is it all in the ignition?... why it couldn't fire??

I went out and checked my pedal - without starting the car or a key in the ignition, the pedal is quite squishy.  

Did you check to see if there was any brake fluid in the reservoir?

Brake fluid absorbs water and needs to be changed periodically, which most people never do (including me, been planning to do it with the brake upgrade I never get to).  Water makes rust.  Perhaps your MC piston rusted in place while you let the car sit.

It sounds like you won't be doing the work yourself, but if you did, you'd get to learn the joy of starting a brake line fitting. You won't believe how hard it is to get one of those things started. I can't fathom why no engineer thought that was a problem worth addressing. Oh, and there's a "special procedure" for installing them. You have to tighten loosen tighten loosen tighten to make them seat right. Can't just do it in one go, or at least it's more likely to leak that way.

Went out to check the brake fluid level. Reservoir is empty. No leaks. That makes it a bit easier I think.
Jack the R - should I just get another battery and fill up the brake fluid tank?


P.s. Jack the R - I'm writing this on my phone. Can you remind me how to post pics here on this site. I took a photo of the empty reservoir but don't seem to be able to post it. Last time I posted was last year when somebody asked about phone/OnStar or something.... but forgot how to insert an attachment . It was one of these small icons here on top.
Thank you

Home now. I got it

If you want to safely take the car back on the road I think you're looking at a minimum of replacing the master cylinder and flushing the lines. The brake fluid didn't evaporate into thin air. There's going to be gunk all through the system. Hopefully you can get by without replacing the lines and rebuilding the calipers. I wouldn't guarantee the lines haven't rusted inside though and I don't know enough about calipers to say what effect this has on them.

There's a leak somewhere if all of your brake fluid is gone. I know this sucks but maybe it's better that you learned about your problem this way than on the road.

A bad battery can cause your non-start condition. I learned that one when I was out and about. If you have any doubts about the battery, change it. It's not worth the cost of a tow and the hassle of being broke down. Batteries are only good for 3-5 years, so if you can't remember when you bought it, it's time for it to go. If you didn't have it on a tender, and it was connected, it's definitely gone.

stan wrote:

Went out to check the brake fluid level. Reservoir is empty. No leaks. That makes it a bit easier I think.
Jack the R - should I just get another battery and fill up the brake fluid tank?


P.s. Jack the R - I'm writing this on my phone. Can you remind me how to post pics here on this site. I took a photo of the empty reservoir but don't seem to be able to post it. Last time I posted was last year when somebody asked about phone/OnStar or something.... but forgot how to insert an attachment . It was one of these small icons here on top.
Thank you

+1 for Jack and the Jammed MC.

If anyone cares, on the Riv it takes about 3 hours to replace all the hard brake lines and refill the system (well, that's about what it took me with a hand bender and that power bleeder I made over a decade ago). Using stock lengths from whatever auto parts store. You only have one line that has to be made up using a union. You will want 2 gravel guard springs for sure, for the lengths of line in the wheel wells.

+2 if he puts a new battery in and it starts His stuff just happens to be breaking the same way mine did.

+1 for anyone who's bending their own lines. I did the fuel line for my Charger twice and got one that was useable, but not perfect. Granted that is one piece from the tank to the engine and the brake line is not as complicated, but I used Inline Tube for the brake lines. I don't know if they have patterns for the 8th gen Riv or not, maybe? I know I'm not bending lines again if I can avoid it.

Albertj and Jack the R. I forgot to report this.
Last time I started/ drove the car was back in early March and i recall the start was kind of...not easy. I think the battery was weak even then. Took a few seconds to fire. After that the car / ride was OK. Now I'm thinking should I just replace the battery and see if at least the engine can start? I have to anyway but...... why it didn't fire when I jumped it ?....
I don't know.!!
I 've always wanted to bend my own lines but don't have the equipment for it , plus I know it ain't that easy.
Jack the R. Don't know why, but something tells me I replace the battery and it'll spin and fire. Why did u replace/ make your own fuel lines for the Charger?
So far I've done nothing to the car hahaha... still thinking about it. I think I have to get a new battery.

Jack the R wrote:

+2 if he puts a new battery in and it starts  His stuff just happens to be breaking the same way mine did.  

+1 for anyone who's bending their own lines.  I did the fuel line for my Charger twice and got one that was useable, but not perfect.  Granted that is one piece from the tank to the engine and the brake line is not as complicated, but I used Inline Tube for the brake lines.  I don't know if they have patterns for the 8th gen Riv or not, maybe?  I know I'm not bending lines again if I can avoid it.    

IIRC Inline Tube has brake and fuel lines for the Riv (they also fit the other G body variants)

Harbor Freight, and probably your local full line parts store, sell a handheld tubing bender that is adequate for this task -- it just looks like pump pliers with a funny head. . What I did - I bought an extra length of brake line to mess with and practice on along with the lengths I needed for the job, and before I started in on copying my brake lines I did practice bends, cuts and flares. I used the coated (I think it is PVC) lines. Worked out fine. It's a half day job. Don't stress out, set aside a day to do it. The worst part was not having a lift but in hindsight it wasn't a big deal.

stan wrote:

Albertj and Jack the R. I forgot to report this.
Last time I started/ drove the car was back in early March and i recall the start was kind of...not easy. I think the battery was weak even then. Took a few seconds to fire. After that the car / ride was OK. Now I'm thinking should I just replace the battery and see if at least the engine can start? I have to anyway but...... why it didn't fire when I jumped it ?....

It could be you have both a bad battery and a bad starter relay.  I've wondered a few times whether letting my Riv sit led to the starter relay problem.  I seem to be the only one who had one go bad.

Either way, it's obvious your next step is to replace the battery.  It's getting to be that time for me too, although mine lives on a tender and Leno claims to get 10 years out of Optimas on a tender.  

stan wrote:

I 've always wanted to bend my own lines but don't have the equipment for it , plus I know it ain't that easy.

Find a priest and tell him you have a demon that needs exorcising.  Line bending isn't a rite of passage you need to go through to be a real car guy.  The bends aren't particularly hard to make.  Getting them in exactly the right place is a pain, and every error compounds as you work down a long line.  The flares are the tough part.  I bought the special tool and have yet to make a good flare with it.  Usually the tool pulls off the line without flaring it.  It might also split the end instead of flaring it.  Then there's the possibility of getting a bit of metal in your line . . .  For the money, it makes more sense to let the pros do it.  Although they'll mess up too.  I've got a line that Inline Tube made backwards, but I didn't catch it until I put the distribution block in many months after purchasing the lines, so it's on me.  

stan wrote:

Why did u replace/ make your own fuel lines for the Charger?

The original gas tank rusted and clogged the fuel line.  Come to think of it, I'm lucky I didn't have a rust fleck migrate into the carb and start a fire.  I've been lucky not to lose that car a couple times.  Dumb things were done in the learning process . . .  Thirty years ago, when they were close to worthless, it didn't matter so much.  Now that decent examples have climbed back into new car pricing, it wouldn't be such a good car to take chances with.  But, being a base model car, it's super easy to work on.  There's a lot to be said for the base model of a classic car.  The less there is to be fixed, the better; and the nicer models have to be kept stock.  The nicest 3rd gen Charger is a quarter million dollar car with a big HEMI and drum brakes.  It will protect the value of your money better than the bank will, but it's not a quarter million dollar driving experience in 2022.  Here's a video of a less-desirable 73 that has been hacked and modified into an autocross car -



This guy has a buddy with a Porsche 914 that has been LS swapped and turboed, but the very-heavily-modified Charger is faster.

albertj wrote:

  I used the coated (I think it is PVC) lines.  Worked out fine. It's a half day job.  Don't stress out, set aside a day to do it.  The worst part was not having a lift but in hindsight it wasn't a big deal.  

I looked into the pre-cut lines on O'Reilly's website, but there was always a little too much excess length to deal with (without cutting and flaring). And that was assuming I could get the lines needed - things got more complicated went I walked into an actual O'Reillys and spoke to the helpful people who had no idea bout the products on the website. As soon as Inline Tubing was suggested, the order was placed.

That brake tubing is a lot softer than the line I bent for fuel tubing though. Maybe I used stainless, it certainly is nice and shiny. Really hard to work with though, whatever it is.

Jack the R wrote:

albertj wrote:

  I used the coated (I think it is PVC) lines.  Worked out fine. It's a half day job.  Don't stress out, set aside a day to do it.  The worst part was not having a lift but in hindsight it wasn't a big deal.  

I looked into the pre-cut lines on O'Reilly's website, but there was always a little too much excess length to deal with (without cutting and flaring).  And that was assuming I could get the lines needed - things got more complicated went I walked into an actual O'Reillys and spoke to the helpful people who had no idea bout the products on the website.  As soon as Inline Tubing was suggested, the order was placed.  

That brake tubing is a lot softer than the line I bent for fuel tubing though.  Maybe I used stainless, it certainly is nice and shiny.  Really hard to work with though, whatever it is.  

Sorry for your troubles. I just didn't have too bad of a time. The thing I did not like was in using the pre-cut lengths I had to use a couple unions - it's a long way to the rear brakes and you have to screw the unions together real real tight. . Bonus though was I didn't have to take anything off but the wheels, the unions hit at the difficult areas in the rear.

Jack the R wrote:

albertj wrote:

  I used the coated (I think it is PVC) lines.  Worked out fine. It's a half day job.  Don't stress out, set aside a day to do it.  The worst part was not having a lift but in hindsight it wasn't a big deal.  

I looked into the pre-cut lines on O'Reilly's website, but there was always a little too much excess length to deal with (without cutting and flaring).  And that was assuming I could get the lines needed - things got more complicated went I walked into an actual O'Reillys and spoke to the helpful people who had no idea bout the products on the website.  As soon as Inline Tubing was suggested, the order was placed.  

That brake tubing is a lot softer than the line I bent for fuel tubing though.  Maybe I used stainless, it certainly is nice and shiny.  Really hard to work with though, whatever it is.  

Sorry for your troubles. I just didn't have too bad of a time. The thing I did not like was in using the pre-cut lengths I had to use a couple unions - it's a long way to the rear brakes and you have to screw the unions together real real tight. . Bonus though was I didn't have to take anything off but the wheels, the unions hit at the difficult areas in the rear.

albertj wrote:

Jack the R wrote:

albertj wrote:

  I used the coated (I think it is PVC) lines.  Worked out fine. It's a half day job.  Don't stress out, set aside a day to do it.  The worst part was not having a lift but in hindsight it wasn't a big deal.  

I looked into the pre-cut lines on O'Reilly's website, but there was always a little too much excess length to deal with (without cutting and flaring).  And that was assuming I could get the lines needed - things got more complicated went I walked into an actual O'Reillys and spoke to the helpful people who had no idea bout the products on the website.  As soon as Inline Tubing was suggested, the order was placed.  

That brake tubing is a lot softer than the line I bent for fuel tubing though.  Maybe I used stainless, it certainly is nice and shiny.  Really hard to work with though, whatever it is.  

Sorry for your troubles.  I just didn't have too bad of a time.  The thing I did not like was in using the pre-cut lengths I had to use a couple unions - it's a long way to the rear brakes and you have to screw the unions together real real tight. .  Bonus though was I didn't have to take anything off but the wheels, the unions hit at the difficult areas in the rear.

Hey, unless you own controlling interest in O'Reilly's, you're not to blame.

The metal Inline Tube uses is soft and easily bent, as was the line I took off the car. I had to replace the end of my one-year-only vapor return line, and I couldn't flare the original line. Luckily it is not under pressure (or so I'm told). So, soft line is easy to bend. Short lines are easier to get right than long lines. I can't get anything to flare though, and there is little to no room for error with brake line flares. Congratulations if you are able to do it. What flaring tool do you use?

Jack the R wrote:

albertj wrote:

Jack the R wrote:

albertj wrote:

  I used the coated (I think it is PVC) lines.  Worked out fine. It's a half day job.  Don't stress out, set aside a day to do it.  The worst part was not having a lift but in hindsight it wasn't a big deal.  

I looked into the pre-cut lines on O'Reilly's website, but there was always a little too much excess length to deal with (without cutting and flaring).  And that was assuming I could get the lines needed - things got more complicated went I walked into an actual O'Reillys and spoke to the helpful people who had no idea bout the products on the website.  As soon as Inline Tubing was suggested, the order was placed.  

That brake tubing is a lot softer than the line I bent for fuel tubing though.  Maybe I used stainless, it certainly is nice and shiny.  Really hard to work with though, whatever it is.  

Sorry for your troubles.  I just didn't have too bad of a time.  The thing I did not like was in using the pre-cut lengths I had to use a couple unions - it's a long way to the rear brakes and you have to screw the unions together real real tight. .  Bonus though was I didn't have to take anything off but the wheels, the unions hit at the difficult areas in the rear.

Hey, unless you own controlling interest in O'Reilly's, you're not to blame.  

The metal Inline Tube uses is soft and easily bent, as was the line I took off the car.  I had to replace the end of my one-year-only vapor return line, and I couldn't flare the original line.  Luckily it is not under pressure (or so I'm told).  So, soft line is easy to bend.  Short lines are easier to get right than long lines.  I can't get anything to flare though, and there is little to no room for error with brake line flares.  Congratulations if you are able to do it.  What flaring tool do you use?

Flaring tool -- that was the funny part. I could not get the Kent-Moore tool to work because I do not have a proper bench vise; my WorkMate would not hold it right. So I used a "rental" flare tool from AutoZone that worked a treat. They are kinda cheap actually... see the link:

https://www.autozone.com/test-scan-and-specialty-tools/tube-flaring-tool/p/oemtools-sae-double-flaring-tool/69341_0_0

SO - to make the GM flare you just make the initial bubble and don't finish it as a double flare. Wash rinse repeat. Goes quickly.

Huh. I used a Summit flaring tool kit which looks identical.