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 Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer

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Jack the R
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Jack the R

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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyMon Sep 07, 2020 3:06 pm

Why take the belt off at this point?  It's out of the way.
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LARRY70GS
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LARRY70GS

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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyMon Sep 07, 2020 5:43 pm

Jack the R wrote:
Why take the belt off at this point?  It's out of the way.


OK, did you get the balancer bolt loose?

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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Jack the R
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Jack the R

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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyMon Sep 07, 2020 7:16 pm

My neighbor's got that impact wrench (or an earlier model). We're going to work on it tomorrow.

I've got a new harmonic balancer bolt too. I should be able to get up to the case learn part. Hopefully I can do it without a Tech 2, but if not, I know a guy who has one.
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LARRY70GS
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LARRY70GS

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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyMon Sep 07, 2020 7:25 pm

I never did a case learn when I replaced my crank sensor. Never had a problem. Maybe you'll be OK.

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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Jack the R
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Jack the R

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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyTue Sep 08, 2020 1:33 pm

The DeWalt wasn't strong enough to break the bolt loose, but I scored a free air compressor and now I'm playing with an air impact wrench. How do you torque to 200 ft/lbs? I haven't found a 200 ft/lb torque stick yet.
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LARRY70GS
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LARRY70GS

Name : Larry
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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyTue Sep 08, 2020 4:45 pm

Jack the R wrote:
The DeWalt wasn't strong enough to break the bolt loose, but I scored a free air compressor and now I'm playing with an air impact wrench.  How do you torque to 200 ft/lbs?  I haven't found a 200 ft/lb torque stick yet.



No Way, was it a 3/8" impact wrench or the 1/2"?

https://www.dewalt.com/products/power-tools/impact-drivers-and-wrenches/20v-max-xr-high-torque-12-in-cordless-impact-wrench-with-detent-pin-anvil-kit/dcf899p1


The above wrench will zip a 3800 balancer bolt off in seconds.


When I did my timing cover R&R, I marked the bolt with a straight line and two hash marks on the ID of the balancer so I had a reference to where the bolt was tightened to.  My engine builder torqued that bolt so I knew it was correct.  There are 3 power levels on the Dewalt.  I turned it up to 3 and hit it for about 5 seconds.  It tightened the bolt beyond where it was. I've used my Dewalt on flexplate to crank bolts installed with red locktite. On alternator pulley bolts, and most frequently on lug nuts. It makes short work on all of it, with ease.

How do you torque a bolt to 200 ft. lbs?  You max out your torque wrench, then put a pipe over it and lean on it as hard as you can.  For the Buick 455, the spec is 200 ft. lbs. MINIMUM.

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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Jack the R
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Jack the R

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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyTue Sep 08, 2020 6:48 pm

1/2" for sure.  It's at least a few years old, but it's the big one, not the little impact driver construction guys use.

I also tried one of these - Link

I couldn't break it loose with the air wrench either, but I don't know what I'm doing with it.  At least I figured out how to reverse it.  

Just to be sure, is the torque for the 3800 bolt supposed to be 200 ft/lbs, or is that just the 455?
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LARRY70GS
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LARRY70GS

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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyTue Sep 08, 2020 7:34 pm

Jack the R wrote:
1/2" for sure.  It's at least a few years old, but it's the big one, not the little impact driver construction guys use.

I also tried one of these - Link

I couldn't break it loose with the air wrench either, but I don't know what I'm doing with it.  At least I figured out how to reverse it.  

Just to be sure, is the torque for the 3800 bolt supposed to be 200 ft/lbs, or is that just the 455?


Then there is something wrong with those wrenches.  Mine breaks everything loose, it's an amazing tool.


No, just the 400-430-455 from 1967-76.

The 3800 gets 111 ft. lbs, then 76* of rotation more.  The FSM specifies an torque angle meter (J 36660)

https://www.toolsource.com/angle-finders-c-614_263/torque-angle-meter-gm-p-149755.html

Kinda stupid to spend 728.00 though lmao   I like the Lisle alternative,

https://www.toolsource.com/angle-finders-c-614_263/torque-angle-meter-p-67899.html

Or even better,

https://www.toolsource.com/angle-finders-c-614_263/stinger-torque-angle-gauge-p-93323.html

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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Jack the R
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Jack the R

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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyTue Sep 08, 2020 7:52 pm

[quote="LARRY70GS"]
Jack the R wrote:


The 3800 gets 111 ft. lbs, then 76* of rotation more.  

I wonder if the engineers who design stuff like that are ever ashamed of themselves. Why not make it 76.005 degrees?

I'm seeing a bunch of torque gauges similar to the OTC on eBay for $8 - Link

The Lisle is on there for $34 - Link

Since being acurate to 1 degree is important, I thought I'd get the Lisle, but it's got two good reviews and one bad review. Is it also made in China?
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LARRY70GS
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LARRY70GS

Name : Larry
Age : 63
Location : Oakland Gardens, NY
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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyTue Sep 08, 2020 7:54 pm

Mine got zipped on with an impact wrench many years ago, same bolt.  Not going to worry about it now.


I think it is relatively easy to lock the flexplate, use a torque wrench to 111 ft. lbs, then mark a reference line on the bolt and figure out what 76* is and tighten it that much more.

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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LARRY70GS
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LARRY70GS

Name : Larry
Age : 63
Location : Oakland Gardens, NY
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Post Count : 1831
Merit : 120

Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyTue Sep 08, 2020 8:01 pm

90* would be 1/4 of a full turn. A little bit short of that.

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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Jack the R
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Jack the R

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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyTue Sep 08, 2020 8:33 pm

But I might hit 78 degrees! afraid
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LARRY70GS
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LARRY70GS

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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyTue Sep 08, 2020 8:36 pm

Or you might only get 75* headbutt smile

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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Jack the R
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Jack the R

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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyTue Sep 08, 2020 9:03 pm

Why can't it be 144 ft/lbs (for example) instead of 111 +76 degrees?
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Jack the R
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Jack the R

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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2020 8:14 pm

I finally managed to get the bolt out.  My neighbor looked at the air compressor and gun and confirmed everything was set up right.  I hit the bolt for a solid minute and didn't budge it.  I had to fall back on the starter motor trick and that did it, after four tries.  My neighbor was watching and was alarmed at how much the engine was pushed up by the starter motor trying to break that bolt loose.  I hope I'm not in for new motor mounts now, I'm sure that's not good for them.  He thought the pry bar (the end with the socket) might have smacked the inside of the sub frame too.  I haven't inspected that area for damage  yet, but I noticed the brake lines are helpfully located in that area when I installed the pulley puller.  

Once I had the bolt out, I noticed a slight discrepancy between the old bolt (bottom) and the new bolt (top) -  

Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Harmonic-balancer-bolt-problem
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albertj
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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2020 1:23 pm

Back to NAPA to match up that bolt.

What a hot mess. Sorry for your troubles.
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Jack the R
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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2020 2:29 pm

Par for the course it seems, although I was hoping this wouldn't be one of those jobs that drags on and on.
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Jack the R
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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 9:23 pm



Found a video about changing the crankshaft sensor.  I think at one point he said the rpms were off by 300 without a case learn, but it ran.  A couple of the commentors were not so lucky though.

Has anyone had this problem mentioned in the comments -

Quote :
When you install the sensor, there is usually an adjustment screw which holds the sensor in place.  This is so to cure any impact of the balancer upon the sensor when the harmonic balancer spins.    If you do not check for spacing, you will ruin the sensor in short order.

Further down I found this -
Quote :
btw, the 2 previous GM 3.8s I replaced crank position sensors on never had a case learn on them and they went years with no problem so I been told the case learn is really for older cars with the older style ECM.
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Jack the R
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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyTue Sep 15, 2020 12:52 am

What about the thread locking compound on the sensor bolts (white) and on the harmonic balancer bolt (orange)? The YouTubers aren't replacing it.
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albertj
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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyTue Sep 15, 2020 9:24 am

Jack the R wrote:
What about the thread locking compound on the sensor bolts (white) and on the harmonic balancer bolt (orange)?  The YouTubers aren't replacing it.

RTFM he he.

Even if the manual did not call for threadlocker I'd at least use Loctite Blue. That thing popping off for that reason (loosening in service) would be, well, catastrophic.
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Jack the R
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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyTue Sep 15, 2020 5:41 pm

NAPA says they no longer stock the harmonic balancer bolt. The hunt for what should be a very common part continues . . .

Regarding the FSM, it leaves a lot to be desired. Usually the forum or YouTube are more useful.
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Jack the R
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyWed Sep 16, 2020 11:20 am

Looking at the FSM regarding the crankshaft balancer bolt, it says to see "fastener notice" in "General Information." There are sections about fasteners in General Information, but not a "fastener notice" section. In the "Metric Fasteners" section, it says not to use thread lockers or sealant unless the FSM specifically calls for it. The FSM does not call for thread locker or sealant on the CPS sensor studs or on the crankshaft balancer bolt. Even though they had/have something on them when I pulled them dunno
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LARRY70GS
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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyWed Sep 16, 2020 8:57 pm

I have never used thread locker on a crank bolt. Just torqued it to spec.

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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albertj
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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyYesterday at 8:39 am

LARRY70GS wrote:
I have never used thread locker on a crank bolt.  Just torqued it to spec.

The GM ones I've seen came with a red dry threadlocker actually under the washer at bolthead. The NAPAones I've seen are naked. Given the direction the crank spins I doubt you'd 'need' threadlocker, but the presence on the OE bolt would have me using a little loctite blue on say a NAPA bolt. Blue does not require a torch to loosen/disassemble.
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LARRY70GS
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LARRY70GS

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Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer   Write-Up: Removing the Crank Pulley/Harmonic Balancer - Page 4 EmptyYesterday at 8:46 am

albertj wrote:
LARRY70GS wrote:
I have never used thread locker on a crank bolt.  Just torqued it to spec.

The GM ones I've seen came with a red dry threadlocker actually under the washer at bolthead.  The NAPAones I've seen are naked.  Given the direction the crank spins I doubt you'd 'need' threadlocker, but the presence on the OE bolt would have me using a little loctite blue on say a NAPA bolt. Blue does not require a torch to loosen/disassemble.

I know some guys will put some RTV under the washer. Had the director of my club tell me he does that.

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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