FAQ: Crankshaft Position Sensor (DTC P0336)

I thought all the recommendations I have read on here was to stick with OEM, Delco or Delphi for replacement CKP's.
But if an Echlin from NAPA is as reliable, then that may be the way I go. And I also did not know NAPA could provide a Delphi unit as per your statement above.?????
I can certainly have it quicker from NAPA.

Rickw wrote:

I thought all the recommendations I have read on here was to stick with OEM, Delco or Delphi for replacement CKP's.
But if an Echlin from NAPA is as reliable, then that may be the way I go. And I also did not know NAPA could provide a Delphi unit as per your statement above.?????
I can certainly have it quicker from NAPA.

That's the point.

The easy recommendation, and I have made this recommendation, is to stick with OE, Delco or Delphi.

Echlin is NAPA's high line. It's now made by Standard (the Blue Streak folks) but is now their (Standard's) high-reliability line. IF the NAPA does not have the Delphi part I would nnot turn up my nose at the Echlin. I would not take the NAPA economy-priced part.

Albertj

OK, now I get ya.
I will price out the top of the line NAPA has and in the meantime my shopping basket is reardy to go at Monster Parts.
I have e-mailed Patrick to ask him what the part number and availability is of the bolt that holds the Harmonic Balancer on.
I have heard differing opinions on that as well. Is it TTY or not. One time use and toss it. Waiting for his reply on Monday hopefully.
Tomorrow I'll go sit at the counter at NAPA for a bit and come home and start ringing out this harness.
I'm not afraid to drive it around town as it has been starting right back up and hasn't stalled all that many times in total.
So i can gamble with driving local with my AAA card handy until I sort it all out.

Rickw wrote:

OK, now I get ya.
I will price out the top of the line NAPA has and in the meantime my shopping basket is reardy to go at Monster Parts.
I have e-mailed Patrick to ask him what the part number and availability is of the bolt that holds the Harmonic Balancer on.
I have heard differing opinions on that as well. Is it TTY or not. One time use and toss it. Waiting for his reply on Monday hopefully.
Tomorrow I'll go sit at the counter at NAPA for a bit and come home and start ringing out this harness.
I'm not afraid to drive it around town as it has been starting right back up and hasn't stalled all that many times in total.
So i can gamble with driving local with my AAA card handy until I sort it all out.

IF it is the typical CKP issue you can open the hood to hasten cooling and the car will restart when it (when the sensor) cools enough. After a while this trick quits working.

By the way the Delphi will be cheaper than the Echlin. And you may, by the way, find that local GM dealers stock these things (they were used on a LOT of GM cars) and a dealer with short parts hours (9 to noon, natch) on Saturday may have it. And may knock a few bucks off?!?



Albertj

All my local GM dealers don't have Parts or Service on Saturdays. So they will have to wait till Monday as well for a price.
But if I can afford it this week, I've been wanting order a new Trans hose and a couple of other small items from GM (Patrick) anyway, So I can wait for Patrick to send me a larger order, I hope.
I have a good/working used sensor, although I don't want to go through the labor of changing it twice.

This is unbelievable. I emailed monsterpartsonline (Patrick) about an hour ago, Friday Night at 10:00 pm.
Received a return e-mail from Patrick just now 11:00 pm indicating that the bolt for the Harmonic Balancer is indeed a Torque to Yield and the P/N 24504736 is available for $7.96.
I e-mailed him back to thank him for a quick response, but what I also wanted to say was "Get a Life Buddy" I have called during normal working hours and he's there, now email on a Friday night and he's there.
I wish I had employee's like him back in the day.

Standard Motor Products is/was an old and reliable brand... I say 'was' because we've learned that even Delco isn't made here, or made worth a shit, anymore... Traditionally, they have had reliable stuff.

Rickw wrote:

All my local GM dealers don't have Parts or Service on Saturdays. So they will have to wait till Monday as well for a price.
But if I can afford it this week, I've been wanting order a new Trans hose and a couple of other small items from GM (Patrick) anyway, So I can wait for Patrick to send me a larger order, I hope.
I have a good/working used sensor, although I don't want to go through the labor of changing it twice.

actually you might want to put that old sensor in if it is known good. If it's an OE sensor, depending on how old it was when pulled it could well run a very long time.

GIven that I had the right tools to prevent munching the harmonic balancer, I'd much rather swap the CKP sensor twice than be randomly stranded.

Albertj

And as far as the puller bolts, I found the 4" ones to be too long when I did it on a N/A riv. They came within 1/4" of hitting the frame, and when the balancer started moving, hit the frame stopping the job. I ended up using a 1/4" drive socket on each bolt as a spacer (it was 11 at night, no stores were open) and eventually got it off. I think its safe to say 3" bolts would have been better.

There seems to be a bit of confusion as to what size and length bolts fit the harmonic Balancer Puller from what I have read on this and other sites.
Well, I have found the solution, sort of.
Snap-On makes an Add-On kit for there harmonic balancer puller. It consists of all specially made tool grade fasteners that do not look anything like a bolt you and I would or could buy at the hardware store.
The Tech I know down the street has a Kit and is marked for 3800 Harmonic Balance Puller.

The Harmonic Puller that Snap-On sells is no different than anyone elses so this bolt/fastener kit would work with any other manufactures puller as far as I know. So, I belive that you can go to the Auto Parts Store or Harbor Freight and buy the basic puller for $20.00 to have in your tool box (very handy puller to have for other jobs as well) I have seen them for $19.99 at Advanced Auto Parts. Of course does not include the special fasteners as I have mentioned for the 3800 engine.

I am going to borrow this fastener kit for use this weekend in replacing my CKP Sensor and I will take pic's of the tool kit and I'm going to measure everything with Dial Calipers and Micrometers so I can make a Blueprint of the individual parts. I already own a Hamonic Balancer Puller that i bought in the early 70's from the Snap-On truck. Have used it for a multitude of jobs, not just HB's.
I will post all of this along with some pic's on how to do the job unless it's already been posted.

I have a guy who is retired machinist that loves to make little things that may interest him. I am going to see if he is interested in duplicating this Kit and then I will donate it to the board for a Loaner.

After having looked at this kit, which only cost's $48.00 from Snap-On, I can say it isn't just a bag of bolts. There are some very specialized fasteners made of tool steel.
Once I get it home and can get a better look at it i can better explain with photo's and dimensions for those that may be interested.

If there is someone on this board with Machinist skills let me know and I won't try to have this old timer make a set. I know using tool steel and heat treating probably would far exceed the cost to buy from Snap-On. So we can make a set using hardened steel with a lathe.
I don't personally have the machining equipment otherwise I wouldn't hesitate making these kit's.
But, we shall see.

thanks Rick, the good news is you got the right puller. The wrong puller tends to rip the rubber in the balancer.

Albertj

albertj wrote:

thanks Rick, the good news is you got the right puller. The wrong puller tends to rip the rubber in the balancer.

Albertj

That's exactly what I have heard also. So that's why I asked around about the correct bolts to use to the job.
I initially thought I was going to find out that a regular bolt of a certain size and thread pitch was what I needed to do this job, until my guy down the street tossed me the plastic bag from Snap-On that is labeled just for the GM 3800 engine.
Initially I thought that this will make things more difficult trying to duplicate what he had or having to wait until Wednesday for the Snap-On truck, but he offered to let me use the Kit.
I never ask to borrow tools as I do not like to lend tools either. But he trust's that I won't ruin a tool, and use it properly and he also knows, if something should happen I would buy him a new set and keep the damaged set.
I hope I have the time to make the blueprints necessary for duplication. The only difference in my duplicated tools, is that it won't be made of the exact same material, as I do not have a Brunell or Rockwell Hardness Tester at home, obviously and I will not have the time to bring it to the shop in NH where I could properly Identify the metal and hardness.
But I am sure I could have this set duplicated with material suitable for our needs.

Interesting. I know I just grabbed some long metric bolts from the hardware store, but I don't know the size now. It was a while ago. Curious what's in the kit that makes it an easier job. Pics please when you are pulling the balance!

albertj wrote:

thanks Rick, the good news is you got the right puller. The wrong puller tends to rip the rubber in the balancer.

Albertj

Speaking of the balancer, at your age (er, I mean your car's age,) have you thought about replacing while you've got it off? I just took a quick look at RockAuto, and they have a Dorman, shipped, for $80... And that includes a new key, while the $120 Delco makes you buy the key separately!

albertj wrote:

thanks Rick, the good news is you got the right puller. The wrong puller tends to rip the rubber in the balancer.
Albertj

I have always owned the correct puller, which has proven to be somewhat of an industry standard since I got mine so long ago, But the proper hardware kit for the puller was new information to me.
If I knew i was going to do more than one in 100K miles, I would buy the add on Kit, but since I am not, I'll just borrow for now and try to duplicate the fasteners later.

The tools will definitely make the job go faster and hopefully without damaging anything.

Eldo wrote:

Speaking of the balancer, at your age (er, I mean your car's age,) have you thought about replacing while you've got it off? I just took a quick look at RockAuto, and they have a Dorman, shipped, for $80... And that includes a new key, while the $120 Delco makes you buy the key separately!

SmartAss - No I did not consider replacing the Harmonic Balancer, should I.?
Do they have a definitive lifespan.?
If so, I haven't read anything regarding the replacement of them by a certain time frame. Have you.?
If it is critical I will try and squeeze it into the budget.

Rickw wrote:

SmartAss - No I did not consider replacing the Harmonic Balancer, should I.?
Do they have a definitive lifespan.?

Well, like so many of the miserable jobs involved with these side-saddle FWD's, it's kinda' the "while you're in there you ought to do it"... like the lower idler pulley. As for age/mileage, I've heard that temperature & road salt exacerbate the problem, and Matthew had this to say:

Mr.Riviera wrote:

Mine went out at ~135k miles and the rest of my car is in pristine condition with 0 rust anywhere and garage kept most of its life. Dont know why mine decided to die other than it was 13yrs old at the time.

I think for $80 and zero extra labor it's worth trying to squeeze it in...

Another clever tip:

Fastfrankie wrote:

Since my air gun would not remove the HB bolt initially, I put a socket and ratchet on the bolt and rested the base of the ratchet on the k-frame of the car, then bumped the starter- bolt came right off.

I'll inspect it closely when it's removed, where I can see it better and decide what to do then.
If I have to go back in there in the near future to replace the HB, I will.
It is not that hard to get to from the passenger wheel well.

I also have a very good used one here that I bought with a grab bag of stuff a while ago for cheap. I almost forgot I had that till now.
You have joggled the memory.

Rickw wrote:

I also have a very good used one here that I bought with a grab bag of stuff a while ago for cheap.

I almost forgot I had that till now. You have joggled the memory.

What was that crack about a SENIOR MOMENT?

Touche'

IMO If it ain't broke don't fix it. The HB is not a wear item, although they can fail earlier than expected sometimes. I wouldn't bother replacing unless you had an issue. Not like the idler/tensioner pullies, which I would consider a wear item and should be replaced at intervals...

deekster_caddy wrote:

IMO If it ain't broke don't fix it. The HB is not a wear item, although they can fail earlier than expected sometimes. I wouldn't bother replacing unless you had an issue. Not like the idler/tensioner pullies, which I would consider a wear item and should be replaced at intervals...

if you remove the HB with a hammer instead of a puller odds are you will have to replace it with another.

Albertj

Well, yesterday afternoon I finally changed the CKP Sensor on my car. Total time including a CASE Learn procedure and clean up was 1.5 hours max. All work was accomplished by removing the right front wheel and the plastic inner fender well. After that there is almost wide open access to the Harmonic Balancer.
That was not rushing, just moving at a steady pace with a bad back, Not a difficult job to do if you have all the correct tools.
I purchased an Echlin Sensor from NAPA P/N CSS 114, because they had it in stock and it is Made in America.
I bought the large bolt that holds the Harmonic Balancer to the Crankshaft new from the local GM stealership because it was listed as a torque to yield bolt. (Use once and throw away) After looking at the diameter of that bolt I'm not sure I would have bought a new one. Just clean the factory applied thread locker from the threads and re-apply some RED thread Locker of your choice and re-use the bolt. In other industries I've worked in, when the manual required new fasteners it was because you would stretch the bolt during the torque procedure and have to use dial indicators to measure the stretch. Not so much on this one, but since I had it, I used it.
I also purchased the seal that goes into the timing cover in case I nicked it during removal of the Balancer. But I didn't because the tools pulled everything so smoothly.
So I was able to return the seal.
First I removed the large center bolt that secures the Harmonic balancer to the Crankshaft with a 15/16" socket and air gun..
Then, I used my Snap-On Harmonic Balance Puller with a borrowed Snap-On Tool Adapter Kit made especially for removing the 3800 Crankshaft Balancer. Snap-On #CJ146.
It consists of 3 special bolts that are threaded only 1/4" on the end and have two degree's of shouldered steps up to the 9/16" hex for a wrench.
To answer the quick question of what is the thread pitch and diameter it is....1/4" x 28 TPI. With an overall length of approximately 3 inches. Remember only 1/4 inch of that 3 inch bolt is threaded.
I have made a blueprint of the complete kit and will take some pic's of the kit for posting tomorrow and copy and scan the blueprint I made. I will be asking someone I know if he can make this kit cheaper than what Snap-On wants for it which is only $48.00. So, I doubt he could make this, even if he just used Stainless instead of hardened and tempered steel. IDK.
Did not have the camera available to me Friday or today. There is a fourth part to the kit and it is an extension that couples with your existing center stud for the puller to give it the depth it needs to go in and contact the crankshaft.
I can see why some people have been able, with just using a few long 1/4" x 28 bolts or a close sized metric bolt, to remove the Harmonic Balancer but the chances of messing up the threads are good with the wrong bolt and the chances of cocking the Harmonic Balancer while pulling it from the shaft are real as well with out this extension piece and the shouldered bolts. The Harmonic balancer came off smoothly by tightening the center bolt after having evenly and alternately tightening the 3 special bolts with a 9/16" wrench, just need to snug the 3 special shouldered bolts - Do Not Overtighten them. Then tighten the center stud of the tool, using some lubricant on the threads (WD-40 or equivalent) with a socket and ratchet or a wrench. Provide slow and consistant pressure on that center stud being cautious of the Harmonic balancer either hanging up and the bolt becoming too tight. Also be aware when you are getting to the end, as the force decreases, you can then continue to turn the center stud of the tool by hand and have your other hand ready to catch the weight of the Balancer. You do not want it to become disengaged from the crank and allow it to fall, you will possibly damage the HB and the stub of the crankshaft.
Re:Assembly:
I just cleaned the Balancer and crankshaft by wiping with a disposable rag as it wasn't real dirty or oily, surprisingly there was just a very light build up dirt on the reluctors that i could wipe without using any chemicals to clean them and put some lube on the Balancer stub that connects to the crank and slid it in by hand to make quite a bit of contact with the woodruff key, which never came out of the groove in the shaft during dis-assembly or cleaning, then installed new large center bolt and tightened initially with my weak air gun, then backed off and torqued the bolt according to the book. Performed the Crank Relearn procedure using a Snap-On MtS-2500 and job was done.

Total cost of parts were $45.72 for the Echlin Sensor and $12.91 for the large bolt from GM (no discount)
Total without taxes = $58.63
Even if I had to buy the Snap-On tool Kit, it would have been around $100.00 Total. I have heard or read on here people paying $200.00 to $300.00 for this job.

Good info, Rick.

There is just one thing I'm unclear on: "The Harmonic balancer came off smoothly with a 9/16" wrench by applying alternate tension on the 3 bolts from the Kit."

Don't you bottom out the 3 small bolts at the start, and then crank the big bolt to pull the balancer?

Yes you are correct.
I need to make a correction.
Thanks for picking up on that for me.
I really wanted to take some pic's while doing it, it would have served two purposes.
One to remind me how to write it up and second being able to just put a paragraph with each photo.
But it didn't happen, My G/F had the camera for business.
I think I will buy my own this year, they are so inexpensive, there's no reason not to.
Actually I've been looking at a couple that are a little more expensive, that come with a multitude of brackets for mounting on my motorcycles and the car and they have the capability of creating video as well.
Saw a nice set-up at the local shop for a little more than $200.00.
I think I'm going to save my pennies for my own camera/video.