Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security

Didn't intend to offer "sleazy" advice to anyone. I am not to skilled at electronics and have wasted alot of time and money at dealerships and mechanics the last several weeks trying to solve this issue. The solution I chose may not be for everyone. All I wanted to do was share the option. No harm intended. I think this is a great forum for Riv owners to help each other. Just remember not all of us are as skilled as many of the participants on this forum. For us there is the cost of time without the car, towing, delaership/mechanic minimum diagnostic fees, not having the root problem solved so the loop continues.......Thanks for your patience and I will keep my advice to a minimum as I value everyone's expertise. Rivren

Hi all, this is Luke/Luca. And I think I'm the unfortunate subject of this.

I don't want to add on this thread, just want to say that my project is available also for free on my website for everybody and it's clearly not a resistor.

The resistor only bypasses the key and the lock, while the entire brain of the system (the TDM) still remains in the loop. I'm not even sure why the resistor is called VATS Bypass cause it bypasses 5% of the system. All is explained in details on my website, including the project to make this FULL bypass for cars with standalone TDM.

I know Revren's comment could seem spam but I assure you he was just a happy customer, not a spammer. Happy as anyone would be after saving his car. And innocent in his writing.

Also, the vast majority of my customers are people that already installed the resistor months before..... And many of my customers are mechanic shops, importers and even dealers. I created that module to save my own LeSabre after using the resistor myself.
Whoever buys my module can also open it up (2 screws only) and check inside if it is a resistor or not. I don't have anything to hide and have Patent Pending on it.

PS: I love Buicks and Riviera's are at the very top of my list.

Thank you
Luke/Luca

rivren wrote:

Didn't intend to offer "sleazy" advice to anyone. I am not to skilled at electronics and have wasted alot of time and money at dealerships and mechanics the last several weeks trying to solve this issue. The solution I chose may not be for everyone. All I wanted to do was share the option. No harm intended. I think this is a great forum for Riv owners to help each other. Just remember not all of us are as skilled as many of the participants on this forum. For us there is the cost of time without the car, towing, delaership/mechanic minimum diagnostic fees, not having the root problem solved so the loop continues.......Thanks for your patience and I will keep my advice to a minimum as I value everyone's expertise. Rivren

I apprecieate your patience with the criticism, including mine - which was uncharacteristcally harsh.

However, if you truly thought this was a great forum, you might have searched on it for the posts that would have revealed that no great mechanical skill was involved in this repair (more on this later).

A quick Google search reveals you've made similar posts on other Buick forums. Funny thing about Google - they crawl the web so efficiently, it's very easy to find stuff like that. Let's just say you've been a busy beaver. Extending that analogy, your post is analagous to building a dam in the flow of information on the forum and you should not be surprised if the locals dismantle your dam.

Back to the "no great mechanical skill" point: your comment, as sincere as it is, insults us all including yourself.

It insults readers because if they are searching the forum to solve this problem, you are consuming their time and attention to compare a ten cent resistor with a hundred eighty dollar device. Although looking at the number of views you got, not that many readers were insulted. And although you claim no harm is intended, actually your approach seems to cause harm and may give rise to liability (explained below).

It insults yourself because it automatically erodes your "brand" so to speak. Granted, fixing the ignition security problem properly is expensive, depending on where and how you buy the ignition switch and lock those parts could cost more than your box, not to mention the time it takes to install those components - admittedly, you have to dismantle the steering column, whcih again is not difficult but is time consuming. But your solution isn't a repair either--it's the same work-around as the ten cent approach, just priced at five orders of magnitude more expensive, and in the same way it does not really repair the root cause of the problem.

The dirty little secret about the security system failure is that it's actually very clever engineering. If you think about it, the security system is most likely the first thing to malfunction when the ignition switch and lock are about at the end of their engineered lifetime. If you repair them correctly (new ignition switch and lock) you won't have to deal with them again for a very long time. If you use your approach or the ten cent resistor workaround though, it's not too long before the contacts in the ignition switch fail (they all do at some point) and the car starts quitting randomly while running in a way that sets no service lights and (which is a much worse problem by the way). Someone with enough money could probably take the seller fo such a box to court -- there is, I think, a pretty good argument that masking this problem makes the box seller liable for damages that occur as a result of the box hiding the worn ignition switch. For instance, if the car quits in an intersection or around a blind curve. The way the security system is designed, when these parts are worn they fail while you're parked. The likelihood that the car, driver and passengers will be in harm's way is much smaller. Consequently, selling this box might give rise to liability of the box seller if the vehicle in which the box is installed later have an accident because they stalled. I suspect the box maker has not thought of this aspect of the thing.

So there is no reason to keep your advice to a minimum - just don't be surprised if you get called on it. And by the way, if you search the fourm you'll find insturctions on how to repair the thing properly too, as well as the work around. Maybe the seller will give you your money back if you return that box.

Your further thoughts?

Albertj

rivren wrote:

It doesn't sound crazy to me to lose a defective security system that can completely disable your car at any time. I read many suggestions that all take money and time. How much time does $180 buy. I spent it and now have a car that works and I did not have to worry about the radio (which is stock) or the ignition switch or any other possiblities. A well placed kill switch is cheaper and more effective than what I removed. Just trying to give another viable option.

...not at anytime, just at start-up. If the car is failing any time, more likely a failing ignition switch is also an issue (you can have more than one problem at once).

Albertj

Jack the R wrote:

How good a DMM does the job need? Google can find them from $8 to $188.

seems to me that the $20-ish meters at Wal Mart or Radio Shack ought to be enough.

Albertj

Albertj, why all this hate? I'm the owner of the website you talk and I don't sell the box at all. I give the project for free and don't even ask for signing on anything. Here it is: http://newrockies.ca/build-the-full-bypass/
If someone doesn't want to build it, he can buy from me and I charge the work. Is all.

Moreover, those security systems are actually very simple, so simple that I built a copy of the entire Passkey II system in my home just for fun. Really, it's a joke and I will publish (for free) also the detailed schematics of the system itself, not just the bypass. I know every bit of it. I'm not in cars, but I'm definitely in electronics.

Also both the GM security system and my module are active exclusively at cranking time, they work the exact same way on that side and they both receive 12V only at crank time, otherwise they are just shut down. So nothing can ever happen while the car is running, intersection or not. It's as simple as this.

Luca

you can also try a pawn s hop some times you can get a real good deal for one.

i dont have a FSM

The definitions of 'spam':

1. the use of electronic messaging systems (including most broadcast media, digital delivery systems) to send unsolicited bulk messages indiscriminately.

2. an economically viable scheme where advertisers have no operating costs beyond the management of their mailing lists, and it is difficult to hold senders accountable for their mass mailings.

3. messages that perpetuate lost productivity and fraud, costing the public and Internet service providers, which have been forced to add extra capacity to cope with the deluge.

Okay, let's examine the posts in this thread, and determine if its content should be deemed inappropriate in the forums.

Is this a bulk message? No, it isn't. We are dealing with a registered (albeit new) member who seems human, and claims to own a '95 Riviera. He may be very passionate about spreading the word about his experience with a new product, but I believe he actually posted his words first hand. I don't think a bot was used to spread the message in bulk.

Is there accountability? It would seem that Rivren is defending his original post with new posts; it's uncharacteristic of spammers to reply back to inquiries. Also the owner, Luke, stepped up and spoke for his product, so there is no 'mystery source' behind the curtain here. This is a positive sign.

Has there been loss of productivity? I don't think so. If anything, our members will learn something about VATS and the countermeasures to correct security issues from what is being discussed here.

So, I wouldn't classify this as spam. However, it does seem to be solicitation, an attempt to sell the product. In the past, members have contacted me before attempting to sell a product, but that was not the case here. I am a bit concerned the members in question are brand new at our board. Perhaps the registration terms, highlighted in bold at the bottom of the agreement page, are still fresh in their minds:

Solicitation will not be tolerated. Registering with the sole or partial intent of promoting a website, forum, or online business that does not support the interest of the board may result in membership ban and/or removal. Spam or other posts not related to automotive discussion will be deleted; membership ban and/or removal will be enforced.

At this point, it is clear to me that Rivren and lamluca came here with at least partial intent to promote their business. But I am not absolutely sure it does not support the interest of our board. I think most of my decision to keep this thread will depend on knowing for certain that Rivren actually owns a '95 Riviera as claimed, and that the proposed solution actually did work.

Rivren, any photo documentation you have of your car, the use of said product, and/or other proof of results should be posted. Otherwise I will have no choice but to remove this thread and possibly revoke your membership for breaching terms of the agreement.

Thank you,
Admin

AA, thank you so much for your post. Please free to delete the link I post in mine and the one rivren posted at the beginning. I actually suggest you doing so. I posted mine just to show people what I was talking about.

I have open comments on the website for testimonials and if I just send and email to my customers telling them about this, you will find lots more subscribers in just the next few hours that will tell you how well my system works. Actually, in full trust I can even send you one of the modules at no cost, you try it and then build your opinion yourself. Just let me know. And you can even keep the opinion for yourself if you like, no need to publish. Really I'm not in business with that module, I started also selling it because people started asking me if I could build it for them.

Thank you again
Luca

Thank you, Luke. I will leave up the links for now. I would still be interested in seeing Ren's car, and any Riviera-specific installation tips, pics, video, etc.

guerrilla marketing fail. can you ipscan both screen names?

mine is 142.166.192.2, also my physical address in on my website on the about me page

I really don't care about where you are, just wondering if both screen names were posting from the same pc.

This is getting ridiculous. And I really honestly don't understand why.

rivren just wanted to tell everybody, like I did when I first made this thing and saved my 95 LeSabre. He has nothing to do with me except he bought 1 of my modules.
Anyway AA can see all the IP addresses as i can do too on my website. He will tell.

I really ask AA to publish his statement about our IP addresses.
Marketing guerrilla? Liability and court? This is not about the modules or the riviera's anymore, this is getting too far on the human side. And it's not fair to deliberately, publicly accuse people in this way.

I'm not a spammer, I'm an honest person and for all my 43 years I've been honest, correct and moral in everything I did. I replied here only because Renato (rivren) told me in an email what was happening after his post.

My details are also public, my professional profile is on linkedin: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/llambrus/ so you can see where is that I make my paycheck, not on the little bunch of modules that I sell.

And on the about me page on my website I have also links to my facebook profile, my family album and the auction on eBay for our house on sale. Do you think I would do this if I were a spammer or were selling fake products? It's absurd, really.

Wow. I apologize for the firestorm. I bought my '95 Riviera about 6 months ago and have been working through issues like a speedo that gets fried. And now the security issue. I will take pictures of my car and the installed device as proof (first I have to figure out how to attach the photos as I have limited computer abilities but I'll try to do it later today). I'm not making a dime off my posting. I just like the car an was happy to help anyone with a similar situation using this forum and the buickforum.com. I guilty of being enthusiastic and honest (although some members have seem to have lost their sense of reasonableness and fair play). I will regret being banned as I need help on a few other issues like a cruise control system that periodically works as well as the remote trunk release. I don't know much and I'll keep my comments to myself as I am not as learned or as smart as several members that have commented on this thread. With regrets, Rivren

well, you're in luck since there seems to be a sudden influx of people on this forum that are experiencing the exact problem that you are offering assistance on.

Forums are communities. when you follow the same 3 forums year after year you get to know everyone and get a feel for the flow of traffic.

new people are always welcome, and typically embraced on this forum, but i'm sure the sudden, recent increase of security light posts prior to the miracle cure being provided didn't go unnoticed by the residents here at rivperformance.

wacky coincidence maybe? whatever. welcome to rivperf.

best of luck in your endeavor.

this thread is hilarious

albertj wrote:

Jack the R wrote:

How good a DMM does the job need? Google can find them from $8 to $188.

seems to me that the $20-ish meters at Wal Mart or Radio Shack ought to be enough.

Albertj

I was going to suggest Radio Shack as well... Pretty much any DMM is going to read out to 3 digits past the decimal point. Here's a $30 example:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103176#

lamluca wrote:

Albertj, why all this hate? I'm the owner of the website you talk and I don't sell the box at all. I give the project for free and don't even ask for signing on anything. Here it is: http://newrockies.ca/build-the-full-bypass/
If someone doesn't want to build it, he can buy from me and I charge the work. Is all.

Moreover, those security systems are actually very simple, so simple that I built a copy of the entire Passkey II system in my home just for fun. Really, it's a joke and I will publish (for free) also the detailed schematics of the system itself, not just the bypass. I know every bit of it. I'm not in cars, but I'm definitely in electronics.

Also both the GM security system and my module are active exclusively at cranking time, they work the exact same way on that side and they both receive 12V only at crank time, otherwise they are just shut down. So nothing can ever happen while the car is running, intersection or not. It's as simple as this.

Luca

No hate at all, lamluca. As jonly pointed out, the sudden, recent increase of security light posts just before rivren posted a "miracle cure" was noticed. As for rivren (and you too), I see no reason why you won't get help--if, when, and as you post problems and symptoms.

Albertj

I apologize for any skepticism i had / have.
After looking at your web site and reading what you have written and seen the simple diagram you have laid out, i still did not see the product that is being sold.
Did I miss a page or something. Even if it is just a plastic box with wiring connectors, it would be something I would have in my advertising.?
Thanks,
Rick

Seriously though.....I can still steal your car faster......

you know, it's funny, but whoever builds my module with the free instructions on the website can steal a huge amount of GM cars very easily with it... It would take 3-4 minutes for me (and I'm not on cars at all) to install that module on a LeSabre 92-99, I can't imagine for a professional thief

Actually (and unfortunately) I'm sure a slice of the traffic on my website is coming from thieves. But it's like knives, you can't stop having them just because killers are using them.

By the way there is a trick many people is using and is to put the module in the glovebox and install it with a pair of connectors. So when they are in bad places, they can just bring the module with them and the car is even better protected than with the original VATS box because there is no key that can work in this case, chip or not

Rickw, thank you so much, there is a sales page actually, but I don't want to run the risk of being called spammer again, so I won't tell you where it is.
But as you can see, if I were really into selling those things to get rich the sales page would be the first one you'd see - now you can call me dumb

Luke,
let me ask a reasonable question if I may.
If the unit is so easy to make with very little investment in materials, why does it Retail for so much.?
Most of us are COB's on here.
COB=Cheap Old Bastards

easy to answer... 5 hours of work for me to build it and test it.

But I have a similar question for you... Why the original PassKey II box is priced 500-1000$? I'll tell you also the answer: it's because you don't know what's inside.. Open it! I invite everybody to do it. Open it up and count the number of components compared to my bypass.
But why we don't dare asking this question to GM? And they take 30 secs to build it in their factories, not 5 hours with the soldering iron in their hands like me.

PS: I'm a COB too

and also, remember, it's free... but if somebody ask me to build it I think I have the right to charge 40$/hr that is half of what Canadian Tire charges in Calgary, Canada . Or do you work for free?