Identifying and Correcting Disc Brake Judder

Yes, the Riv is especially sensitive to torque of the wheels.
I keep an extra torque wrench and socket in the trunk, so if it goes in the shop for anything i can't do and it requires them to remove the wheels I insist on an even torque up to the recommended max of 100 ft/lbs and supply the torque Wrench to do it. When they try to argue and say the torque sticks are what they use, I just insist or ask them to allow me to torque the wheels.
It doesn't take much to warp the rotors.

what does the f body conversion require?
Camero rotors and calipers? do they just bolt on?

There is a complete "Write Up' on here regarding everything that is required.
https://rivperformance.editboard.com/suspension-handling-f6/write-up-f-body-brake-mod-t2310-30.htm

Matt, I would use something of quality, but not too expensive. The Royalty rotors I bought last year have performed admirably for over 14k miles. No cracks except some roughness near the drill holes, but this is minor and not really of any concern. If you get concerned, Royalty offers a lifetime warranty against cracking and warping, IF you follow their installation instructions. More: https://rivperformance.editboard.com/brakes-suspension-f6/rotors-and-pads-t2081-135.htm

Mine are wearing down, so I will replace them eventually. If they don't crack or warp, I'm not going to take advantage of their warranty. I may buy another set, or I may get a set of slotted only, although these seem to be more expensive.

i toke my car into the shop and found out my rotors are warped and im looking to get some crossed drilled rotors or sumthing that will handle the driving i give my riv any imput on websites and prices for performance rotors and brake pads

These rotors warp easily... Do a search for 'rotors' - you'll find a couple of long discussions.

If you are really hard on brakes, I recommend Hawk HP Plus street/track pads. They are a bit noisy and will wear (thin) down your rotors after 20k miles or so, but they will not shake or warp in that time, and they stop your Riv quick. Unlike all-out race pads, they grip really well when cold.

Cross-drilling helps keep the rotors cool, but does not guarantee you won't get some judder - track cars usually run solid rotors to lower the risk of cracking. The important things are to use good iron and abrasive pads to keep the compound deposits from building up unevenly - and that costs money. I run slotted & drilled rotors now, and will probably run slotted only next time.

• Pick a set of rotors in the $150/pair range.
• Use high-temp, abrasive street/track pads.
• Be prepared to replace after 20-30k miles.
• Upgrade to F-Body front calipers if you can.
• Don't drag on your brakes when you drive.
• Don't stop completely with hot brakes.

That's the price paid to stop a 2-ton Buick from high speed over and over again. On the plus side, it's a much lower price than a big brake kit, which can be $4-6k.

i've done some serious experimenting with pads and rotors over the past year and i think i finally found a combo that works for my driving style.
powerslot rotors and HPS pads. ($300 for front rotors and pads for my f-body setup)

If I am going over 60 or 70 and brake my car does this horrible shaking and makes this loud bumping noise... I replaced the the struts/shocks although my elc is acting up. It seems like after I get it to shake it does it for awhile afterwards even at lower speeds. I cant tell if its abs acting up or rotors or maybe something else.

plan to replace all rotors here soon because i dont know when they were changed last and the fronts have some nice grooves in them. But does anyone have a suggestion or experience with what it could be?

Sounds like you have a few problems happening at the same time.

- horrible shaking when braking at high speed: rotors are warped. They may stay warped until they cool down again, and then seem to improve. I had this problem when I used a cheaper pad compound. When you replace the rotors, also replace the pads - use a quality pad: ceramic or semi-metallic (not organic).

- loud bumping noise: did it happen before you replaced the struts? Is it more of a bumping, or clanking, or is it grinding? Does it happen when you go over bumps, or only when you brake? Only at high speed?

- ELC acting up: see ELC thread...
https://rivperformance.editboard.com/brakes-suspension-f6/electronic-leveling-control-elc-problems-t2995-180.htm#110711

- ABS acting up: do you ever see the ABS light come on?

- grooves in rotors: this happens when either the pads are the rotors get too old. Replace both and you should be fine. If the grooves are very deep, it means the pads are worn out and you are grinding metal to metal. In this case, fix ASAP!

When you have the wheels off again and are inspecting or replacing your brakes, make sure you take the time with a crow bar and check the front lower control arm bushings and ball-joint as well. Also, check hub bearings for wear.
Pretty much inspect everything you can possibly think of that Rotates or moves up and down.
You need to find that noise.
There's plenty to read here on brakes. Aaron has authored a lot of very valuable info on brakes.
So, even if you should choose to replace your brakes with Stock type or perforfamce brakes, everything you will need to know is already been published.
Do a little searching and you'll find a huge amount of info.

Good Luck

I wonder at what mileage it's a good bet to just replace the front control arms? (to get new ball joints and bushings )

I wouldn't get new arms - just replace the ball joints and bushings, right? At 204k miles, the right side ball joint is loose (cracked boot). The left is fine, and all of the bushings seem okay (as checked by front end mechanic last week).

AA,
Do most of the roads you travel have no potholes or any other defects that would account for such high mileage without what would be considered normal front end component wear.
200K and only needing a right balljoint is a bit remarkable even with the Riv.


At what year are the parts no longer available individually and you have to replace the whole control arm to get new bushings and balljoints.

Short of trying to find the compatible equivalents, which after reading on here for quite a while, I haven't seen anyone post a specific P/N of a known manufacturer of aftermarket parts like Moog, etc that will fit.

I have seen guys, especially overseas, mention they have taken a part made for another vehicle and machined it down to fit, as far as bushings go. But I don't have the P/N's of those either.

Has anyone documented the parts that are usable for the later model Riv's and I have missed it possibly.?

Quote :

AA,
Do most of the roads you travel have no potholes or any other defects that would account for such high mileage without what would be considered normal front end component wear.
200K and only needing a right balljoint is a bit remarkable even with the Riv.

I do live in the snow belt, and we have salted roads in the winter. The result is a lot of cracks and potholes. It's not as bad as MI, but Ohio roads are always being patched and resurfaced. I have cracked a rim before hitting a chuck hole. I've also lost control and hit a curb. But I can count these 'high impact' events on one hand.

I do my best to avoid hitting surface irregularities at all costs. I also plan my routes around certain stretches of road - if I can, I'll slow down for tracks and other obstacles. It's just not worth the risk, imo. I usually don't go too fast over unfamiliar road, for more reasons than avoiding bumps. Partly it's good luck, too, I guess.

AA wrote:

I wouldn't get new arms - just replace the ball joints and bushings, right? At 204k miles, the right side ball joint is loose (cracked boot). The left is fine, and all of the bushings seem okay (as checked by front end mechanic last week).

I would get the whole arm, to save on the labor. It comes with bushings and ball joint already installed and doesn't cost much more, maybe even less than the labor to get the bushings swapped out. At least get a price.

Hmm, all right. I'll check into it. Thx for the info.

The Riv is shaking really bad at even slow braking when 65mph+ It seems to shake the steering wheel a lot, and i dont think its my rotors because I have no pulsing in the pedal. Anyone have This problem before?

-Jon

I don't understand shaking with no pedal sensation. Please explain further.

Albertj

shaking as in almost like anti lock brakes kicking on... and its really loud.

You would feel ABS in the brake pedal.

FIrst thing to do it put the car on a lift or jackstands and inspect the suspension.

Albertj

Sounds like you have warped front rotors. Take the wheels off, put a few lug nuts back on, and measure rotor runout with a dial indicator. You aren't getting any pedal feedback because it's shaking the steering wheel instead. If the steering was rock solid you would feel it in the pedal also.

I agree it's likely the rotors, but they may not be warped... yet. Have you used the brakes very hard lately? Do you see any marks on the rotors? Have the pads been changed in a while?

Read back through this thread for more info on the causes of brake rotor judder.

thanks guys i was planning to do 4 new rotors anyways... i might be selling the riv soon and it makes me cry to think of what i will be driving if i do sell it... a geo metro...

Do the front rotors first. The rears may be ok. Easy way to check the rears is to engage the parking brake while car is rolling.