Brake Fluid

What kind of brake fluid is everyone using? Dot 3, Dot 4, or something else? What is a good brand?

I believe these cars came with DOT 3, I'm not 100 % sure though.
I have flushed the system completely and replaced with DOT 4 synthetic, it's not necessary though. If you do proper maintenance by flushing your brake system every couple of years then either DOT 3 or 4 is adequate unless the manufacturer recommends DOT 4 for use in ABS equipped vehicle..
Any major name label product is good to use. I just wouldn't buy generic fluids.
DOT 3 will attract moisture slightly quicker than DOT 4. But again that doesn't matter if your flushing your system every 2 years.
The only advantage to using DOT 4 is it has a higher boiling point and doesn't attract moisture as quickly as DOT 3. Unless your autocrossing and using the brakes extremely hard you don't need the higher boiling point though.
The only reason I used Dot 4 after the first flush was, it was what I keep in my garage as I use it in my motorcycle brake systems where heat is more of a concern. And it also will not peel the paint off if you spill some.
The last bottle I bought is a Valvolene product, synthetic DOT 4.

with you Rick.
i use DOT 4 synthetic and i bleed them often. i also drive my brakes really hard now that i got the F-bodys/Hawk pads.

Brake fluid is hygroscopic (meaning it absorbs water) and the more water there is in the fluid the lower the boiling point of the fluid will be. If the fluid boils in the caliper then the result will be reduced brake action.
i'm sure there is already a thread containing this info, but when it comes time to bleed them, start with the caliper farthest from the MC and work in.

Dont use DOT 5 fluid b/c i believe it will damage the MC internals and lines.

Another reason not to use DOT 5 is because it's a silicone based fluid, so it's hydrophobic - will not absorb water. You want a fluid that absorbs water easily, so that it cannot oxidize the metals from the inside out. I think DOT 4 absorbs water just as readily as DOT 3.

DOT 4 is meant for replacement in DOT 3 systems.

Thanks for the help everyone. I don't think the brake fluid has ever been changed. I think I will go with the DOT 4 brake fluid for a little bit extra protection.

Is this the correct order to bleed the brakes?
Right rear
Left front
Left rear
Right front

98riv wrote:

Thanks for the help everyone. I don't think the brake fluid has ever been changed. I think I will go with the DOT 4 brake fluid for a little bit extra protection.

Is this the correct order to bleed the brakes?
Right rear
Left front
Left rear
Right front

Right Rear
Left Rear
Right Front
Left Front
Since it hasn't been bleed in a long time be extra careful with the bleeder screws.
You may may want to spray them a day ahead of time with a good penetrant spray like PB Blaster or Kroil. PB blaster is available at most auto parts stores, Kroil is a little harder to come by but is also an excellent product.
Try lightly tapping on the bleeder screws with a hammer to loosen any rust on the threads also. Hit the bleeders straight on the top, don't angle your hammer and break one. It will ruin your day.
Good luck and happy bleeding

some comments about brake fluid

- the more moisture it has absorbed the darker it gets.
- our cars (the gen 8 Rivs) were delivered with DOT3 fluid.

From www.advrider.com:

ARRANGED BY DRY BOILING POINT:
DRY: 401F -- WET: 284F --- DOT3
DRY: 446F -- WET: 311F --- DOT4
DRY: 502F -- WET: 343F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER
DRY: 509F -- WET: 365F --- MOTUL 5.1
DRY: 527F -- WET: 302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY: 536F -- WET: 392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY: 550F -- WET: 290F --- FORD HD
DRY: 590F -- WET: 410F --- AP RACING 600
DRY: 590F -- WET: 518F --- CASTROL SRF
DRY: 593F -- WET: 420F --- MOTUL RBF600
DRY: 610F -- WET: 421F --- NEO-SYNTHETIC SUPER DOT 610

ARRANGED BY WET BOILING POINT:
DRY: 401F -- WET: 284F --- DOT3
DRY: 550F -- WET: 290F --- FORD HD
DRY: 527F -- WET: 302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY: 446F -- WET: 311F --- DOT4
DRY: 502F -- WET: 343F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER
DRY: 509F -- WET: 365F --- MOTUL 5.1
DRY: 536F -- WET: 392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY: 590F -- WET: 410F --- AP RACING 600
DRY: 593F -- WET: 420F --- MOTUL RBF600
DRY: 610F -- WET: 421F --- NEO-SYNTHETIC SUPER DOT 610
DRY: 590F -- WET: 518F --- CASTROL SRF

- I use Prestone DOT3 Synthetic or Valvoline DOT3/4 Synpower synthetic.

- you may want to make/BUILD a power bleeder

Albertj

Albert,
Thanks for that link, it is excellent. I bookmarked it.
One of my riding buddy's is a long distance adventure rider, I forwarded that link to him. I know he'll get a kick out of it.
I thought it was just a slideshow of pic's but i discovered it's a whole lot more than that.
There were over 1800 registered people on-line when I looked. I'll need to register on that site.
Very good find. Thanks again.

I changed the brake fluid today. I used almost all of a big bottle of brake fluid (I think it was around 32oz). The old fluid was black, so I really wanted to make sure that I got it out. There looks to be a thin coating of black stuff in the master cylinder reservoir. I'm not sure what it was, but I guess it was from the old fluid. Thanks for the tips about the bleeder screws Rick. The rear ones were rusty, but I didn't have any trouble because I followed your tips. The brake pedal feels firmer now and less mushy. Thanks again everyone for the help.

I've just changed my brake fluid over to Ate Super Blue Racing DOT 4. This fluid has a dry boiling point of 536ºF (130º higher than stock) and 392ºF wet (this fluid will perform as good after 3 years as brand new DOT 3). It is fully compatible with our stock braking system.

The blue color is a great idea because it makes changing the fluid easier. I raised the car on stands, removed all 4 wheels, and bled about 85 mL out of each caliper, keeping an eye on the reservoir. When it was about 2/3 empty, I filled up with the Super Blue and bled each caliper agian until pure blue in color. When finished, topped off again, then test drive, then topped off once more. Takes ~1/2 liter for the job.

As for performance, I won't know for sure until I try some serious braking, but based on the specs (exceeds DOT 5.1) it should be among the best out there. Ate is a trusted brand; our stock master cylinders are Ate (German) product. The main reason I did the change was so I wouldn't have to worry about changing the fluid for at least 3 more years, and was also concerned about the heat created during frequent, hard stopping.

Super Blue Racing fluid is sold in 1 liter cans for $12 + shipping. I got mine from TireRack. Maybe you could split a can with a friend, as you don't want to save excess fluid - it goes bad quickly after opening.

Aaron,

How do you like the ATE Super Blue Racing DOT 4 brake fluid? Would you still buy it again and is tirerack the best (cheapest) place to order it from?

The Super Blue has been in my car for over 1 year so far and still the brakes works great, with 208k miles on original master cylinder and brake lines. I also used in my wife's Toyota, and in the LeMons race car. No complaints so far. I honestly wouldn't use any other fluid.

Is it worth $12 bucks? For as often as most people change fluid (almost never), I think it is cheap insurance against brake fade during hard, hot stops. Otherwise, just flushing the system every couple years with regular $5 DOT 4 from the corner store is still much better than doing nothing at all.

Performance-wise, you won't see a noticeable braking advantage on the street, but if on the track, or braking hard down a steep grade, it could make a real difference.

AA wrote:

The Super Blue has been in my car for over 1 year so far and still the brakes works great, with 208k miles on original master cylinder and brake lines. I also used in my wife's Toyota, and in the LeMons race car. No complaints so far. I honestly wouldn't use any other fluid.

Is it worth $12 bucks? For as often as most people change fluid (almost never), I think it is cheap insurance against brake fade during hard, hot stops. Otherwise, just flushing the system every couple years with regular $5 DOT 4 from the corner store is still much better than doing nothing at all.

Performance-wise, you won't see a noticeable braking advantage on the street, but if on the track, or braking hard down a steep grade, it could make a real difference.

Thanks. The brakes on my car don't seem really firm anymore, so I thought I would change and bleed the fluid again to try to fix it. They work pretty good once I really get on them.

There are two causes that make fluid go bad, otherwise it should last a long, long, time.

1) water in lines. Can be caused by a leak in the line, or by exposing the fluid to humidity. Reusing fluid, leaving the cap off the bottle, or the reservoir can cause this. In extreme cases, water can absorb into the system over several years.

2) boiling the fluid. Just a single instance of hard braking to the point of boiling the fluid near the caliper can cause it to go bad.
_____________________________________

There are two symptoms of having bad fluid:

1) dark color. Means the fluid is old and "wet", causing oxidation inside the lines.

2) spongy brake pedal. Fluid that has gone bad from boiling will feel like there is air in the line - the pedal will go to the floor, with a springiness, and the brakes will fade. This will only happen when the brakes get very hot.

If you feel spongy or springy when cold, it is probably just air in the lines. Using a vacuum pump ($30) will correct this. If the brakes feel 'soft', you may want to upgrade or fabricate braided steel front hoses. This will make a difference in firmness.

Added firmness when warm does not seem like it would be from bad fluid, imo.

AA wrote:

There are two causes that make fluid go bad, otherwise it should last a long, long, time.

1) water in lines. Can be caused by a leak in the line, or by exposing the fluid to humidity. Reusing fluid, leaving the cap off the bottle, or the reservoir can cause this. In extreme cases, water can absorb into the system over several years.

2) boiling the fluid. Just a single instance of hard braking to the point of boiling the fluid near the caliper can cause it to go bad.
_____________________________________

There are two symptoms of having bad fluid:

1) dark color. Means the fluid is old and "wet", causing oxidation inside the lines.

2) spongy brake pedal. Fluid that has gone bad from boiling will feel like there is air in the line - the pedal will go to the floor, with a springiness, and the brakes will fade. This will only happen when the brakes get very hot.

If you feel spongy or springy when cold, it is probably just air in the lines. Using a vacuum pump ($30) will correct this. If the brakes feel 'soft', you may want to upgrade or fabricate braided steel front hoses. This will make a difference in firmness.

Added firmness when warm does not seem like it would be from bad fluid, imo.

I have a vacuum pump already, so I will give that a try. I went ahead and ordered the ATE brake fluid anyway. Might as well change the fluid over while I am bleeding the brakes. I didn't have this problem before I changed the rear pads. I didn't crack open the bleeder valve, so air shouldn't have gotten into the lines correct? The new pads are making contact with the rotor. The old inside pads in the rear weren't even making full contact with the rotor.Could it have happened when I burnished the pads and rotors? I may have gotten them a little too hot. Although, I may have had this problem before I replaced the rear brakes. But I may have not noticed it because of the warped rear rotors. I've never experienced this before so I am not sure what is the issue. Hopefully it will go away when I change to the new fluid.

No air can get in when just swapping pads/rotors, but you may have boiled it during the bed-in if you applied to p-brake at high speed. Otherwise, it is very difficult to get the rear pads that hot (fronts will overheat first).

The inside rear pads were probably thin from being in direct contact with the caliper piston. It's normal for pads to wear this way, especially with older, dirty calipers. But I think they were making contact when you applied the brakes. The inside pad always makes contact first, then the floating pad follows suit. Sometimes the outside pad can become stuck, but usually not the inside pad - unless the caliper piston fails or sticks - in this case both pads would not function.

AA wrote:

No air can get in when just swapping pads/rotors, but you may have boiled it during the bed-in if you applied to p-brake at high speed. Otherwise, it is very difficult to get the rear pads that hot (fronts will overheat first).

The inside rear pads were probably thin from being in direct contact with the caliper piston. It's normal for pads to wear this way, especially with older, dirty calipers. But I think they were making contact when you applied the brakes. The inside pad always makes contact first, then the floating pad follows suit. Sometimes the outside pad can become stuck, but usually not the inside pad - unless the caliper piston fails or sticks - in this case both pads would not function.

I figured I got the front pads too hot and it may have boiled the fluid up there. I didn't use the parking brake at all. Should I have? Did I do damage to the front ones if I got them too hot? The rotors aren't warped.

I could tell the pads weren't touching the rotor that much in the rear because you could see a wear mark in the rotor about a quarter of an inch around the rotor. The rest of the rotor was rusty. My guess is the grease on the pad guides went bad or I didn't clean them good enough last time and caused the inside pad to get a little crooked and only causing part of the pad to make contact with the rotor. The outside pads were making contact. The car still stopped well like that, so it confirmed that most of the braking was coming from the front. I should have taken a picture, but I already got rid of them. I did replace all of the guides, bushings and caliper bolts while I had it apart. I also used some Permatex high heat brake lubricant on everything.

The brake fluid came today. Tirerack has some pretty quick shipping. Probably will try to change it later this weekend.

Cool, let us know how it goes.

Changed the fluid today. The blue color really makes it easier to see when the old fluid is gone. I noticed that ATE makes the brake fluid in an amber color that is exactly like the ATE Super Blue. Didn't notice that much of a difference, but the pedal is firmer and it should work better than the old fluid.

Bleeding and flushing my system I got DOT 4 Synth. is this ok i thought i read on here it actually makes for a better pedal. THNX!!

I've been using dot 4 synthetic fluid for several years.

There is a dot 3 synthetic available as well.

The Ate blue and Pentosin (I think it's yellow) fluids are good too.the brakes feel firmer because the dot 4 won't get as "wet" as dot 3.

Be sure to change brake fluid (flush and fill) when the fluid darkens (it gets dark when it's. "Wet")
the dot 3 fluid is fine, though.

Big advantage to DOT 4 is higher boiling point over DOT 3. If you ever get in situations where the brakes get very hot, DOT 4 won't fade. Since our braking systems work find with DOT 4 fluids, there's really no good reason to use the old DOT 3 any longer.

Avoid DOT 5 and other silicone based fluids.

I've got a slow brake flud leak that just started last month.  It takes about 2 weeks to draw down from full to "check brake" light in the reservoir, so I'll look around the calipers this weekend I guess.  The car sat for a few years nearly undriven, and the fluid was very dark before it was flushed out and changed.  It is relatively dark again now.  So I may have a bad seal in the master or one or more of the calipers   

It is interesting that the car drove for a month or more after the brake job with no leak (5k + miles), but it has just started this last month.  I would have thought a leak would have shown up very soon after, but maybe a seal just took that long to get a knick from debris.

Check the rubber hoses for leaks. Sometimes after a brake job the hoses can crack because they were stressed during the procedure. Techs are supposed to secure the calipers when they work, but you never know unless they feel the need to tell you.

Dark fluid indicates rusting of the lines from the inside. It means the fluid has absorbed enough water to start oxidation inside of the system. I change my fluid every 1-2 years, and advise anyone who wants to keep their original brake lines to do the same. Mine have some exterior rust, but I strongly feel keeping the fluid "dry" is what keeps them alive, and it ensures you can stop faster and better without fear of boiling the fluid. Even the best brake fluids are only $15 per quart, so why not?