Dont know what to do now, Timing?

My original post was on the idlerly pully but after that repair now I have a new problem. I added it my other post but just incase I am starting a new thread. He posted on the Pulley thread also.

Quote :

Nez wrote:
Hey there, this is Joby's son... Well, we have the pulley and belt replaced, but now the car isn't starting. My step father believes the timing jumped when I cranked the car after pulley had initially broken (I was the one driving it at the time.) In retrospect, that was not the best of ideas... In any case, is there a way to check for that, or would something else be the cause for the engine not starting?


What happen when he was driving was- he was at the drive thru at McDonalds and he herd a pop which was either the belt or the pully, then the car died. He got the car to crank again and drove it about maybe 100 yrds away and it died again. wouldnt crack after that and he saw the belt was broke. So towed the car to my house and changed the pulley that broke and replaced the belt that snapped. Would anything he did make the car jump timing or why would it not run now. Turns over and thats about it. Any ideas Im open for trying just about anything.also.

What year is your car? Supercharged or not?

It is a '98 S2 Supercharger

it's really hard to make a 3800 jump time unless you *really* bust something, timing device is a 2-row chain not a belt.

No start could be as simple as when replacing the belt someone accidentally disconnected the crank sensor (it is behind harmonic balancer) or the wiring to it got damaged when the belt broke and threw (not likely but could happen it's tight in there).

First thing I would do is check the wiring in the vicnity of the belt path, and I'd use a scanner (preferably a dealer's TechII) to check for codes, also to check the operation of all the sensors and the fuel pump. The Tech II lets you look at whether any of those are malfunctioning (well, at least electrically) from the drivers' seat. You can also command/test the fuel pump and stuff.

So with a no-start, you nave an interesting combination of old-school troubleshooting and new electronics to include in the mix.

Again I'd look for something busted that the belt might of hit or snagged, as well as pull codes.

Albertj

Cannot jump timing by breaking a serp belt.

I agree with albert. Check for any broken wiring near and around the belt area. If you moved the ICM out of the way during your repair, there is a couple of grounds behind the iron bracket it attaches to......also make sure the ICM plug is screwed in.
Don't know how much came apart fixin it....just some suggestions added to albertj's

Let's see... When the pulley broke at first, I was able to crank it no problem. Along with the other two times it died, and I cranked it. (I didn't exactly want to leave it in the drive through at McDonalds...)

When I pulled into the parking lot, where I planned on leaving it until I could get some help anyway, it killed on me again, and that's when the second belt came off. So the only thing I could think of myself is a wire getting damaged, or something have accidentally been unplugged during the replacement of that idler pulley(the one behind the engine mount) and the belts. I remember spotting something looking like it had been nicked when my stepfather and I looked at it, but I'm not entirely sure what wire it was.

Only thing removed was motor mount and power steering pump, same thing as when changing the water pump. There is a frayed wire going to the coil but I think it was frayed before hand. Im not sure so I will be checking to see if the spark plugs are firing. But it still not giving any codes with my code reader.

More than likely a wire did get damaged from the Crank position sensor harness or the Cam position sensor harness, or you have a broken ground wire. The small black wire that runs from under the coil pack to a bolt on the engine. It's just a small diameter wire and about 6" to 8" long.
As someone already mentioned / asked - did you have to remove the bracket assembly that the coil packs sit on.?
If so, you could potentially damaged, broke or frayed that small black wire or the belt slapping around in their could ahve done it to any of the wires on that side of the engine.
Will need to look real close at all wiring and if you disconnected the coil packs for access then double check that the main connector that is held on by one bolt in the front of the coils is tight.
Make sure you take your time looking at all the wires you can see, as it is likely that one or more got damaged by the broken belt when you drove from the Drive-thru to where ever you ended up.

There is a small black wire that goes from the plug on the coil pack harness between the coil and motor then down by the motor somewhere it is frayed. Would that be the ground. Nothing was removed except the motor mount and the power steering pump.

Joby70739 wrote:

There is a small black wire that goes from the plug on the coil pack harness between the coil and motor then down by the motor somewhere it is frayed. Would that be the ground. Nothing was removed except the motor mount and the power steering pump.

By frayed you mean...

A.) the coating is missing and it's green and potentially broken
or
B.) the coating is missing but the wire is clean and still intact

If it looks broke, fix it. If it's not broke, tape it up or put some gms over it and we keep trying to find the problem.

Ok just went ouside while it is dark and it is not firing at all. The black wire is frayed small pieces broke but mostly still intact. Would that make it not crank and just sit there and turn over?

Coating is missing looks pretty fresh and yes small pieces broken

Joby70739 wrote:

There is a small black wire that goes from the plug on the coil pack harness between the coil and motor then down by the motor somewhere it is frayed. Would that be the ground. Nothing was removed except the motor mount and the power steering pump.

Yes that is the ground wire i was talking about.
It has a ring terminal on the end that connects to the engine for ground.
If it is damaged, frayed, whatever, fix that wire and make sure you are getting a good path to ground.
Remove the nut from the stud where it is attached and fix the wire, clean the ring terminal of any corrosion and tighten it back down carefully.

If it is in fact broke the coils will not fire. You said before you had NO spark. Did you verify this by using a spark tester or by grounding a disconnected plug wire and cranking it?

The old fashion way with a screw driver, removing a plug wire sticking the screw driver in and trying to arc it to the spark plug by cranking it. Tried every plug and the same thing nothing. I've never tested anything with a spark tester.

I would definitely check that ground and also the ignition module connector.

Gonna fix the groud first thing in the morning, hope that's it. Wish me luck and thanks everyone. Will update tomorrow.

Where is the iignition module connector located?

Joby70739 wrote:

Where is the iignition module connector located?

The ignition module is underneath the coils....coils are connected to it. The connector is long and flat and is held in by a 7mm bolt....on the front of the coil packs. That ground you found frayed is prolly the ground for this connector.

Oh no that connector is fine, and yes that is what that wire come from that is frayed/broke.

Could we get Joby's two threads about this problem merged? I would have wanted to read all this before answering in the other thread.

The other was about the Pulley and belt But this one stems from that one so why not.

Okay fixed the ground, Still nothing. The battery is going dead From not running but I dont think that has anything to do with it not cranking. When they husband gets home I will get him to help check for spark again. He was wondering if the belt could have smacked the coil pack hard enough to make them go out.?.?. I wouldnt think but also there is a wire that runs under the water pump, its hard to fit my fingers down there and cant see it but I feel like maybe one of those wires are damaged. If I put my hand in between the pulley and the motor mount I feel something but I'm not sure what it is. I checked everything I could see without tearing it down again by myself. Nothing else looks damaged, Im lost.

You need to gain visual access to those wires as they are more than likely the culprit, since they can easily have become damaged when the belt and pulley fragmented on you. Try inspection mirror's or anything you can think of to get a very good look at them. Unfortunately this may involve removing stuff that's in the way of looking and repairing any wires. The belt hitting the coils is VERY Unlikely to have caused all of them to stop working.
Also, why is the battery losing it's charge. It shouldn't lose charge from sitting unless something is draining it. Or do you mean having the door(s) open and cranking the engine to test things have caused it to go down.?
Either way you want to put a charger / maintainer on it so you have at least 12 volts to do the testing you need to do. When things get below 8 volts, some systems will not work properly including the ignition system. Not saying that's what stopping it from starting but for all troubleshooting purpose's it's best to have the batt at 12 or more volts.
Good Luck and don't give up, keep at it until you find the problem. My guess is the wiring to the crank position sensor. Also, if any of those wires happened to short to ground it could have fried the sensor as well.
Fix the wires first though.

Joby70739 wrote:

Okay fixed the ground, Still nothing. The battery is going dead From not running but I dont think that has anything to do with it not cranking. When they husband gets home I will get him to help check for spark again. He was wondering if the belt could have smacked the coil pack hard enough to make them go out.?.?. I wouldnt think but also there is a wire that runs under the water pump, its hard to fit my fingers down there and cant see it but I feel like maybe one of those wires are damaged. If I put my hand in between the pulley and the motor mount I feel something but I'm not sure what it is. I checked everything I could see without tearing it down again by myself. Nothing else looks damaged, Im lost.

Hmmm... yeah you have an issue - I've parked my '98 Riv for weeks at a time (left at home while traveling out of the country) and come back and it starts right up. I mean, it has a pretty high battery drain when off but should not be enough to cause a nostart in a day or so.

If battery voltage is too low the car will not start. I do not remember if it will crank-no-start on low voltage or just not try to start.

Help me out, guys - is the line under the water pump the one to the crank sensor?

it's really time to get that FSM set...

Albertj