Old Cars vs. New

I was helping my friend put in an awesome computer in his new F250. The kids a genious. He casual told me he'll give me a sum figure of how much it would cost to put in a computer. I thought about it for a good week. I was going to a site visit and saw an old Thunderbird "flair bird" ($3500) for sale.

I was thinking how cool it would be to modestly convert an oldie like that into an awesome daily driver w/ computer.

The moral problem with that is changing a piece of history. But if the poor bird is crying for a new life I'd love to grab one. My T-bird of choice is a "bullet bird"


I'm trying to figure out some other cool looking oldies that might be cool for a project like this $3000 would be ideal but it almost seems like a limited budget for classic cars I did a little searching for alternate candidates and found:

Chrysler 300 (1962)


Buick Invicta (I couldn't come close to the one pictured )


so as you see from some of my choices I'm looking for one of those crazy-looking 60's cars. I'd like to stick with that era cause I was never into muscle cars (70's).

If you guys know of any models that youv'e seen that are a steal-of-a-deal, let me know. That would be so cool to get to own a vintage car.

These are pretty common, reliable, and aren't much $:



Understand that older cars weren't built as well, require regular maintenance, and tend to break, sometimes without warning. You haven't been truly scared until the wheel of your Dodge Dart flies off while you're doing 70 in the expressway.

I'd like it to be reliable for a daily cruise but I don't trust old cars on the highway. It freaks me out when an 80's $h!† box passes me on the highway.

So I'd problably keep it under 50mph. Just to be on the semi-safe side

For a coupe...this is an awesome machine! Of course, put your own color twist on her.

If I can find one even for $8k, that would be hot.

I would consider a 60's Riv. Those are pretty cheap, they're on the verge of turning into a valuable classic IMO. Plus I know there's a factory color that will fit nicely next to the Racera


sidenote: I want to kill people who put cell phone pics on ebay as their photos WTF litterally a thumbnail-sized pic.

quote: "I would consider a 60's Riv. Those are pretty cheap, they're on the verge of turning into a valuable classic IMO."

They turned classic about 15 years ago, and they are already sought after; one in good condition will cost you. If you find one cheap, know that you will always spend more to make it nice. I'm guessing a clean, straight, original low mile '60s Riv will be in the $5-6k range. A restored one could be $10k or more.

Probably my favorite body design of any car is the '65 Riv:

that's a fair price, of course I'd take the 5-6 range so I could put some personal touches om it without feeling like a heretic


here found a car

jax95riv wrote:

Of course, put your own color twist on her.

Yeah, just put some yellow on her and heck, you got the bat mobile!

I guess I've always liked big coupes. I'm begining to see a pattern...

Some really nice 2-doors there, Jack. Here's my '70 Ninety Eight Holiday Coupe:

forgot about the Toronados I like the first gens and the 1969's, I'd veto the muscle car limitation for one of those or a Riv.

I was watching a show on HD called Collective Intelligence that is a show were collectors show you 20 tips on collecting things. Ironically last night was tips on collecting muscle cars.

Some of the tips

-watch out for rust (well duh, but a little is ok with me if it's reparable)
-buy convertibles
-buy Corvettes
-PHS Pontiac Historical Services to check out ius your pontiac is original or a clone

but yeah good tips but not much I can work with, I almost got a Corvette 1984 blue coupe, but I really wanted a convertible.

Oh and back on subject are there any good looking old cars that are fairly cheap even if I could find one with little rust?

Go here if you haven't already:

http://ww2.collectorcartraderonline.com/

Those muscle car suggestions suck. All of the nice pre '73 Corvettes and convertibles are all already at high prices.

Very nice Olds, Aaron. I bet she's fun to drive. A time of big motors...big cars. I think I must have a thing for '67 models...

here's one I saw on the local Craigslist, but it's been stored outside for 20 years.

1948 Buick Roadmaster, only $850 (I know, you get what you pay for)

I should just wait until my cousin contacts the owner of the old Buick that's sitting in her garage. I think it's like 1930's or something. The guy paid my aunt and uncle 200 every month to store it there and it's been like 30 years. Since my aunt and uncles recent passing my cousin inhereted the house and plans on storing her husband's custom Mustang in that area. Well everybody wants the car, lets just see if the guy sells.

From: https://rivperformance.editboard.com/Discussion-c4/Riviera-Talk-f21/-t1369.htm

Jack the R: "if you want to go car crazy get something with RWD and real performance potential. Preferably an old muscle car that's appreciating, not depreciating"

I agree with Jack to fix up the car you have and keep it as long as possible. However, I would not make a backwards move replacing a Riv with something older, expecting better performance potential.

Problems with older RWD cars (I've owned at least 4):

1) Safety... Don't try driving in snow, let alone the type of maneuvering we do in our cars. Even wet roads can be a challenge if the car has any power going to the wheels. Also, the idea that older, heavier cars are safer only applies when you hit something smaller & lighter than you. Tangle with an 18 wheeler or big SUV, and you want new car technology (impact engineered, air bags) to save your life. Oh, most older cars don't stop on a dime like a Riv with ABS can.

2) Reliability... Be prepared for extra high-maintenance. Older cars have lots of chrome and edgy surfaces that need to be really cleaned, not just sprayed down with a hose and dried. Auto car wash bays are out of the question. Even with care, the body will rust twice as fast, engine/suspension parts break twice as often. No stainless exhaust parts, so count on fixing that yearly if you live up north. Cars used to be built for 100k miles max, or about a 5 year life. Have a pile of cash and AAA Gold for those major break downs. Don't have a job where you need to arrive on time every day, especially in winter.

3) Finding Parts... Need a new body panel? How about a brake disk? Window glass? Have fun searching through stock yards across the country, and be ready to pay high $$$ in some cases. The dealership won't stock the parts. They won't even work on your car, even though they made the product! You'll be a regular at NAPA & Autozone, and you'll find the OEM grade parts cost a lot more than the cheaper Chinese knock-offs.

4) Investment... I'm sure Jack was only kidding, but just in case, DO NOT expect a car to be a solid investment unless it's a Corvette or other special, rare car that would cost you at least $15k in the first place. And of those, the only cars that truly increase in value are #1or #2 condition, near perfect, like new shape. That means you can put mirrors underneath and show people how you cleaned the paint. That means a frame-off restoration, which will cost you an additional $10k. More importantly, it means you almost never drive the car.

5) Performance... Older cars aren't as fast or as powerful as most would like to think. Sure, you get throttle response with the big V8s, but newer engines put out as much or more HP to the ground, and are a lot lighter, too. RWD gives great launching capability, and a better weight distribution, but newer RWD cars are even better at it, and handling will certainly not be that of an AWD car. Speaking of launching, our FWD cars don't do too bad off the line for what they are.

6) Economy... You will pay at the pump, period. There is little way around this unless you do some major modification to an older RWD car.

Only speaking from experience when I try to make people think hard before buying an older RWD vehicle. There's a cool factor with vintage iron, and decent insurance rates, but not much else. Before the Riv, I only owned cars older than 1986... six of them, 4 were RWD. Fun, but not practical. If you have a second, newer car for daily driving, maybe. Otherwise, hate to see you spend your money.

1) No argument from me, although I have seen guys argue the old cars are safer.

2) The amount of chrome depends on what you get. Aside from the bumpers and mirror, which I'd like to have painted body color (a factory option), my Charger has less chrome than the Riv. Actually, if you consider that the Riv has chrome rims and the Charger doesn't, the Riv has more chrome than the Charger.

I've had no problems with extra edginess. It cleans up just fine (except for being an old car with bad paint and chrome).

After 35 years I'm starting to get some rust in the quarter panels. That ain't bad, especially considering the mud I've thrown up in there over the years.

Suspension and engine reliability problems? What have you been driving, some kind of Chebby? I can't even imagine. Well, I think it's like everything else, some manufacturers built better products than others. You do your research, pay your money, and take your chances. The only major breakdowns I ever experienced were -

a) Timing chain worn at 100,000 + miles (i.e. regular maintenance). This wasn't a total breakdown, but it did cause the car to stall out a few times before I got it changed.

b) Transmission failure at 100,000 + miles. This was probably my fault for not getting the kickdown lever set right after I changed the manifold and carb.

That's it, and I used to make a bunch of long distance trips with this car during my school years. It was always reliable.

3) - forums, man, just like here. I got a new side mirror cheap out of a California yard from a guy who scrounged junkyard parts for extra cash. He was like the Ed Morad of Moparstyle - it was no problem at all.

4) Actually I'm not kidding. I came close to selling my Charger earlier this year. I asked what people thought it was worth and the number I was hearing was a grand more than I paid for it, though it is now in project car condition, with the interior stripped out and undriveable. A car doesn't have to be in #1 or #2 condition to appreciate - from what I hear, even rusted out junkyard Challengers are appreciating.

If you want to put time into your car though, why not take a #3 condition Charger /GTO/etc and turn it into a #2 or #1 condition car? Would a repaint dramatically improve the selling price of my Riv? I doubt it. Would it improve the selling price of my Charger? Definitely.

5) I can tell you this, my mechanic was not too impressed with the performance potential of the Riv, but he was excited about the Charger. He's got a 500 hp Vette and a 600+ hp motor looking for a home (too scary to drive).

The Riv is competitive against older cars with stock V8's, but who said anything about leaving the V8 stock? You didn't leave your Riv stock.

The great thing about modding an old V8 vs a newer car is the superior aftermarket support. Your headers were $900. Hookers for my Charger are $170. I think the Hedman's I got were $130. Summit has headers for popular GM models for as little as $90! That's an order of magnitude of difference!

A cam for my car would be $180 (how much is it for the L67?)

Transmission - a TCI Streetfighter 727 Torqueflight is $880 and is good for 450 hp. It'll cost $4000 to get the Riv's tranny there.

Does anyone make custom heads for the L67 at all?

As far as braking/handling goes, you've noted yourself that most of it is tires. It would be hard to find an old car that wasn't already on modern tires. The trick is to retune the suspension and braking system to take advantage of what the modern tires can do. Classic mopars can be made to brake and handle very well. Probably anything with a unibody can.

I don't consider fwd vs rwd to be open to debate.

New RWD vs old RWD - yeah, you can make a new RWD car go fast (or buy one that's already fast), but guess what's coming? Depreciation. Losing $20,000-30,000+ to depreciation is for fools, or people who have insane amounts of money.

The Riv is o.k. for a daily driver modded for moderate performance - but if you want to get extreme with the time and money you put into a car (average person extreme, not rich person extreme), a classic is better. If you put $20,000-30,000 dollars and hundreds of hours into a late model Riv, good luck finding a buyer for that. Do the same for a 2nd gen Charger and you will have no trouble finding a buyer. If you're going to spend your time and money, put it where you can get value back for it if the need arises. I don't think there's anyone on this forum rich enough to know they will never have money problems come up.

Jack, you obviously know the ins and outs of classic cars, and can give the attention to detail that will keep the car operating far longer than the manufacturer intended. The average person doesn't have a clue how to truly maintain old iron, and if they knew how much time and effort it took, they may not be on board with the idea. Most newer cars are built so much better, parts last longer, recommended care is less, and once again... you get more performance without modding, and with less weight.

My experience with old cars:

I bought a 1970 Oldsmobile 98 2-door Holiday coupe in '00 for $4000. Car had 85k original miles, repainted red (its original color) and was immaculate. White vinyl hard top had been removed and top was painted white... this was because the vinyl rotted over time, and it's why you don't find it on exteriors any more. (actually found out recently it was original paint on the top, a not so common option!)

The Olds came with a 455 Rocket V8, 4 barrel Quadrajet carb, rated 365 hp & made 506 lb-ft of torque at very low RPMs. It's quick, but the car is a tank, weighing 5,000 lbs! A stock SC Riviera will destroy it from every performance angle possible. These cars are comparable, both are big 2-door luxury coupes, both domestic, same manufacturer, same market. In 1970, the Olds and Riv had very similar performance potential. But something happened in 25 years time.

Not long after I bought the Olds, a Dodge NEON turned in front of me doing 45 mph, destroying the front of my car. If it had been a barrier wall, I probably would've been killed or injured severly. Due to scarcity of body panels in perfect condition, it took over 6 months for the body shop to put her back together. Btw, they don't pay for a rental all that time when you drive a classic 30 year old car.

Then the brake rotors warped. No one would turn them because they were too thin. I thought NAPA carried them, then found out they start at '71 and up. This is because disc brakes were a rare option for GM cars in 1970, and there's almost no demand. After searching every Oldsmobile website, and 442.com's forum, I found that in 1970, each division had their own special disc design, and no one made them, so it was only old stock. After a while, I found them used on ebay, starting bid: $250, and that was before shipping. I bought them because I had to.

Big Red, as I like to call the Olds, is a great, fun car. Good build quality for the time, but she's old now, and spends a lot of time asleep in the garage.. Her vinyl seat is mildly cracking at 112k. My Riv's leather is holding up much better. Heater core is shot, so I disconnected it. Not a winter car, so don't need heat. AC compressor clutch froze up, so need to replace the entire unit. OEM equipment is NOT cheap. I rarely drive her anymore because it's so expensive. 15 mpg on the freeway, maybe 8 mpg in town. I hear this is normal from those who drove big cars back when gas was .30/gal.

Roll back 4 years, I had an '85 Chevy Caprice with a 305 V8. Nice car, lasted 235k, but not everything worked, and it was slow and did not handle at all. Had electronic issues, replaced the door switches, etc. Overall a boring machine, that got me from point A to B for a while.

Roll back 6 years. Bought a '74 Olds Cutlass Salon. Brown, ugly as poop, but I like the power of its 350 Rocket V8, which someone had fitted some of those cheap mild steel headers... you know, the kind you can pick up for $200. Well I drove the car for 3 months before the headers rusted out and broke off. The brake lines also rusted out in the rear. This is when I said the hell with it and got rid of the car.

Roll back 10 years, I bought a '76 Dodge Dart Swinger 2-door with 54k miles. This car had been garaged since day one, perfect inside, outside it had some spots of rust, but not much. Drove this car 5 years, put high miles her. Engine ran great, but started pinging after 100k miles. Was told the 225 "Slant 6" needed a valve job, or I could use premium fuel, which I did. Car got okay mileage in the 20 mpg range, but was slow, and wouldn't start when it was wet outside because the distributer cap design was prone to letting moisture in. The car couldn't handle at all, even with decent tires. I lost control of the car more than a few times in the winter. It couldn't stop, even on dry pavement. Once, I was driving up a hill on a snowy night, and the car lost traction and started to go backwards down the hill! I also lost it on snow and did 180º spins on two occasions. I careened with guard rails twice. My mother drove it only one time, to move it across our driveway one winter day when I was asleep. She slid to the bottom of the drive and landed in a ditch... then she came to wake me up.

The Swinger probably ran at least 200k miles. I don't know for sure because the mechanical odometer/speedo cable busted behind the dash; the needle actually broke off inside the cluster... at 135k. Rust took over the car rapidly, as it was a unibody, and Chyslers from this time are notorious for being hard to keep. One MOPAR expert recommended I pour motor oil in the trunk to keep the inside quarter panels lubed. He said, "Drips on peoples driveway, but keeps the rust away." I didn't take his advise, and soon the white Swinger looked like an Appaloosa horse. At one point, the door pull handle actually broke off the door because it rusted through.

When I departed with the Swinger, practically nothing worked on the car except the stereo, which I installed because it came only with an AM radio, which never worked. Also not included was a rear defogger. The previous owner had an electric one that you could plug into the cigarette lighter up front, lol. There was also no AC, but it had little doors on the left and right sides of the car. You could open these if you didn't mind debris from outside flying in... they were just direct ports to the bottom of the firewall, you could see light through them. Heat worked too well. It burned you when on, no matter what speed you set. Vinyl seats were shredded, dash was cracked all over, carpet was a big hair ball in parts. Most plastic inside was discolored to a lighter hue. Paint was starting to peel from the ceiling, which was actually maid of cardboard! Oh, and the car leaked water under the dash from day one. I never could find out where it came from, but I just wore dark colored pants for a few years.

Items I replaced while I owned the Swinger: Leaky oil sending unit. front brake calipers, which seized up soon after I got the car. Bad pitman arm. Rear wheel bearing, which howled like whole rear end was going until I had a new one pressed in. Front wheel bearing, which made no noise at all until it melted the spindle one day at 70 mph, causing the front wheel to actually separate from the car. Upper/lower ball joints, which regularly fail on these cars, cost me $300 at the mechanic. Single barrel carb had to be rebuilt twice. Some ballast resistor under the hood died in the dead of winter. Windshield wiper linkage under the dash, which just slipped off one day... was hilarious to see how they engineered this!

Transmission decided to go out later down the road. It still worked, but you had to floor the throttle and wait till approx 5k RPM before it would shift. It only had 3 speeds, and 5k was near redline, so it was scary to get on the freeway sometimes. The engine put up this, oh what a workhorse that inline 6 was. In the end, my plates were stolen while I was on vacation, and when I got back, the Swinger had been towed away. I told them to keep her.

I had a few other cars not worth mentioning. They were old and slow. They broke down often. They had crap economy. They didn't start when it was too cold. They took extra time and care just to keep them looking and running good.

In 2003, I bought the Riviera. I've only had to replace basic items like brakes and suspension parts, plugs/wires, a couple of idler pulleys, fluids, wiper blades, etc. Plus, I've modded it, which is a first for me (all my previous cars were near stock). I drive it infinitely faster and put it through much more vigorous maneuvering than any of my past rides, as my tire buying history and driving records clearly show... but I've been able to put 120k miles on the car, and not a speck of rust on the body, everything still works, and I never have to replace more than the occasional bearing or catalytic converter. I've lost control of the car once on a wet interchange ramp, but was easily able to get the nose under control. It's not a sports car or anything, but I'm not comparing it to one. If you look at how far your average sedan has come in 30 years, it's obvious the late model Riv is king. And look at what has happened in the last 10 years... There are cars out now that make the Riviera look weak. I'll believe that older cars have more style, and can be more fun, but technology has brought quality and efficiency to the newer cars. What's Chrysler offering now? A Lifetime powertrain warranty? Makes a lot of sense for a lot of people.

Let me clarify a few things -

- I don't recommend a classic as a first car or daily driver for a person who doesn't know or isn't interested in learning about cars. I recommend those people move to a city with good public transportation and forget about owning anything with bigger wheels than a roller skate ( because no matter how much cyclists think they should share the road, they are a hazard to everyone).

- I'm iffy on the idea of a classic as a daily driver, but it can work for anyone the first point doesn't rule out.

- In Andy's case a classic would be a 3rd car, not a daily driver.

- I think the Riv makes an excellent 1st car/daily driver, and would recommend it to anyone interested in learning car repair. Most Riv's need some repair work at this point, but they aren't too far gone. A Riv is a great way to get a taste of car restoration and modding, and doesn't take too much effort to get back to like new condition.

-What I think doesn't make much sense is going too far with the modding and customization on a late model Riv. There is no market for highly customized late-model Rivs. It's the kind of personal indulgence only rich people should engage in. I would say most users on this forum are not rich, and are going to come to the point where they either have to sell the car because of a new baby, college expenses for the kids (or themselves), etc etc. When you are not rich, every move you make has to be an investment. You can't throw money away on indulgences. You have to put it where you can get it back if you need to.

Here's what I think is a good strategy for Andy and anyone else on this board who has a place to put a second car. Get the Riv back into like-new condition, and use it for what it was intended for - comfortable and reliable highway riding with a touch of sport. Then, once you've got your reliable daily driver, if you've got the car hobby in your blood and want to go crazy, get an older car that is going to appreciate in the future for a 2nd vehicle. Spend your time/money there. Build it as extreme as you want and enjoy it on the weekends.

AA wrote:

Most newer cars are built so much better, parts last longer, recommended care is less, and once again... you get more performance without modding, and with less weight.

Comparing the Riv to the Charger, I'm sorry, but the build and durability of the Riv doesn't come close to the Charger. A few examples -

Door handles - The Riv does not have a door handle, as far as I am concerned. It has a door unlatcher. I open the door by unlatching it, pulling it about an inch, and opening it by the edge of the door. I know one day I am going to forget, pull the unlatcher too hard, and break it. Or someone else who mistakes it for a real handle will. The 2nd Riv I looked at had a broken handle, and one of the regalGS Riv owners had his break. You can't tell me this is durable or well built.

The Charger has a real metal door handle. Inside and out. You can whale on it all day long and you will only wear your arm out.

Window seals - the Riv uses plastic. It's holding up well so far, and hopefully will continue to do so as long as I keep the car garaged during hot summer days. I've seen this stuff peel up on other cars though and have no faith in it.

The Charger has metal seals. After 34 years there is exactly zero detioration.

Rear view mirrors - like most modern cars, the Riv's mirror is glued onto glass. Like most modern cars, it comes unglued in sufficient heat. This is not quality. The Charger's mirror is bolted to the roof. It will never fall off.

Interior surfaces - check the wear areas around your center console. Places where fingernails might hit. When I painted my parts, I found multiple areas where the plastic surfacing had been dinged and peeled off. Not quality!

On the Charger the only thing comparable are the plastic a-pillar covers, which after 34 years of UV exposure are showing signs of plastic crumble. They're still very useable but if you scrape a fingernail along them, you get plastic dust under your nail.

Headliners - It took 30 years for the Charger's headliner to fall down, and it's of a design that is cheaply replaced. I don't know how long the Riv's will hold up, but falling headliners have been the scourge of all the aging modern cars I've had experience with. My folks priced one for an S-10 they had and it was a few hundred dollars. How much more expensive will the Riv's be (being bigger and on a rarer vehicle?).

Wheel well trim - Riv - chromed plastic held on with tabs. My front passenger side trim had a broken tab and is currently held in place with super glue.

Charger - Metal, held on with screws. Will only come off when I take it off.

Folding seats - Charger - Seats latch into place in the upright position. They don't go anywhere until unlatched, and then fold towards the center to make entry into the rear seat easier. The front seats don't try to fall back onto entering/exitting passengers. The shoulder belt also detaches from the lap belt, so one does not have to climb through the seat belt to get into the back seat.

Weight - I don't know exactly how much my Charger weighs. My guess is, as equipped, it is a couple hundred pounds lighter than the Riv. But this is without good things like A/C and stereo, let alone airbags and a sunroof. However I'm sure I can make up weight for those things by going to aluminum heads, disk brakes, headers, and a fiberglass hood. There's way too much cast iron on the Charger. Everything but the block can be replaced though. Even the block can be replaced for enough $$. A new Hemi and 6 speed would not be wasted on this car if I had the money for it.

AA wrote:

Her vinyl seat is mildly cracking at 112k. My Riv's leather is holding up much better.

I think this is one of those instances where mileage is less of a factor than age. The 70 Olds has absorbed 37 years of UV, the Riv only 9.

Your Olds seems to be on the edge of needing a re-upholstery job. Andy's Riv sounds like it needs one now, and I would guess most are in that condition. I would guess that all but the most well cared for vehicles could use new upholstery after 10 years.

AA wrote:

Then the brake rotors warped. No one would turn them because they were too thin. I thought NAPA carried them, then found out they start at '71 and up. This is because disc brakes were a rare option for GM cars in 1970, and there's almost no demand. After searching every Oldsmobile website, and 442.com's forum, I found that in 1970, each division had their own special disc design, and no one made them, so it was only old stock. After a while, I found them used on ebay, starting bid: $250, and that was before shipping. I bought them because I had to.

If the starting bid was $250, this SS brakes kit (including rotors, calipers, and master cylinder) seems like a good deal at $590 -

Link

AA wrote:

but the car is a tank, weighing 5,000 lbs!

Woah, this is the car you've currently got? How did GM build it that heavy? I can see 4300 - 4400 with a big block, but 5000?! This is basically the same thing as a GTO or Chevelle isn't it (I'm not up to speed on GM muscle cars)?

At any rate, I'm sure that if you got in a head-on at 45 with any vehicle in nearly any other vehicle, both vehicles will be near totalled.

AA wrote:

someone had fitted some of those cheap mild steel headers... you know, the kind you can pick up for $200

IIRC there was an option to have my Hedman headers coated with Jet Hot which doubled the price. I don't know if this stuff works (I think I'll find out), if it does that's only an extra $42 -

Link

Brake lines you can bend yourself for cheap. I did my fuel line.

AA wrote:

Was told the 225 "Slant 6" needed a valve job, or I could use premium fuel, which I did.

Was this car designed to run on leaded fuel?

AA wrote:

The car couldn't handle at all, even with decent tires.

Because you hadn't modified the suspension to make use of modern tires. It was tuned for the limits of 70's tires.

It's a shame you don't still have the Dart, because that's an amazing sleeper. IIRC they weigh less than 3000 lbs and can take a 440. Some versions came standard with the 727 Torqueflight 4 speed manual. You could build a version with the 440 or Hemi, all the cop goodies, plus all the lightweight parts from the Dart Lite (like the aluminum hood). Provided you could find donor cars. I think the suspension can be upgraded, although I'm not sure if the book I've got goes up to 76 or not.

AA wrote:

Once, I was driving up a hill on a snowy night, and the car lost traction and started to go backwards down the hill!

Ah, the lost art of driving rwd in the snow. Snow tires and weight in the trunk, my friend. I bet my grandmother could have done it

AA wrote:

I don't know for sure because the mechanical odometer/speedo cable busted behind the dash;

Yeah, mine started acting up too at 106,000. The idea of a speedometer cable is a bit of a shocker. I wonder how it's done today?

AA wrote:

There was also no AC,

I'm sure there was an option for AC in 76.

My Riv came with AC. The compressor's leaked for the last 3, which means it only held up for 6. Not quality.

AA wrote:

but it had little doors on the left and right sides of the car. You could open these if you didn't mind debris from outside flying in... they were just direct ports to the bottom of the firewall, you could see light through them.

I've got those too. They work well but it is blustery inside! Mine go through a more circuitous route though and had a mouse nest in them at one point - I'm glad no one was with me when it blew out all over the passenger side!

AA wrote:

Vinyl seats were shredded, dash was cracked all over, carpet was a big hair ball in parts. Most plastic inside was discolored to a lighter hue.

Most of that is fairly cheap to repair/replace, except for the dash. I've got a $130 plastic dash cap on mine (which cracked itself due to improper install. I did my best with it, but my best apparently wasn't good enough). SEM works great on those plastic panels!!

AA wrote:

Paint was starting to peel from the ceiling, which was actually maid of cardboard!

Now that's different. I've never heard of a cardboard headliner before.

AA wrote:

and not a speck of rust on the body,

I've got two rusty spots on my Riv's bumper beneath the license plate. I have no idea where it's coming from, as the bumper is not metal.

AA wrote:

What's Chrysler offering now? A Lifetime powertrain warranty?

I wonder how they define lifetime?

HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA


ok..............im not getting in this but after i spent the last probably 20 minutes reading this i must give my opinion........

Now i havent owned any old cars,,,,,, but i have driven a few and i have seen a few................ so my opinion is that sure back in the day it was a little bit "better" quality Probably not..............but the riv has MANY more options that gives the chance to go wrong so...... idk thats like comparing a geo metro with base options to a brand new audi A8........... the audi is going to have MORE issues because its more prone to failure liek powerseats, power mirrors, heated seat........ idk maybe you i made it clear LOL

Yep. The more things to break, the more things will be broken. The Riv's got doodads I haven't touched after 3 years of ownership - and probably stuff I haven't even discovered yet. New cars are even worse.

When you've got doodads, you got to use them once in a while, or they will break. Like the AC for example. Yours broke, mine hasn't (yet).

Travis brings up such an excellent point. For as little as my older cars have offered me, the Riviera, with all of its creature comforts, still lasts longer. I'm still on the original battery for goodness sake. My ignition wires lasted 100k miles. Sunroof still works flawlessly (my older cars didn't even have this). The passenger mirror tilt feature still works. Heated and motorized seats... still working. Even with all of this extra stuff, nothing has broken yet.

I've sited examples of mechanical stuff, because that's the kind of thing that breaks most often. It's also the kind of stuff used in older vehicles, and manufacturers try to get away from it as much as possible. Not surprisingly, I use everything, because it's useful. That's good design.


quote: "What I think doesn't make much sense is going too far with the modding and customization on a late model Riv. There is no market for highly customized late-model Rivs. It's the kind of personal indulgence only rich people should engage in. I would say most users on this forum are not rich, and are going to come to the point where they either have to sell the car because of a new baby, college expenses for the kids (or themselves), etc etc. When you are not rich, every move you make has to be an investment. You can't throw money away on indulgences. You have to put it where you can get it back if you need to."

I couldn't disagree more. The Riviera is a solid, reliable platform from which to mod. On top of that, it's affordable, and its engine is nearly indestructible. It's unique in appearance, but not scarce enough that parts are hard to find. There is adequate performance support for our engine. Dozens of bolt ons an internals are available. I have yet to look for a part for this engine that someone hasn't made.

And this idea of being rich... Well I'll tell you, I'm not. Before I bought the Riv, I never paid more than $4000 for any of my 6 cars. I scored the Swinger for $1500, the Caprice for $500, and I understand those were well worth the money, although back then that was a lot for me. So when I find a basically new $35K car with 24.5k miles, for sale at a dealer for $13k, I decided to play the modern car game. I have never regretted spending that much on the Riviera. The satisfaction I have received has more than paid for the car already.

And I'm sorry, but even with parts being more expensive for the 3800, many people forget that this engine comes stock with a power adder built in! Try buying a supercharger or turbo kit for your charger, and see how much it sets you back. My former boss bought a Nissan 350Z with V6. Turbo kit: over $8k. I have managed to knock nearly 2 seconds off my quarter mile time for about $3k spaced out over 4 years, and these are all bolt-on mods that don't compromise reliability.

In most ways, I drive the same Riviera as every other owner, except mine makes some noise, and goes a bit faster when I want it to. When I ask myself if I've made a mistake in modifying this car, the solid answer is, "no". It's not a rich person's indulgence, it's common man's fun. I can think of much more expensive hobbies, like modifying practically any newer car on the market. Ever look at how much money kids are throwing into their turbo import cars to go fast? THAT'S big spending.

This website was founded in the fact that a well-crafted luxury coupe can be made into a sleeper with some knowledge, some time, and some money. How much depends on what you're looking to achieve. And don't forget, some people don't have a choice on whether to buy a certain car. They already have a RIviera, and they want to get the most out of the car they drive every day. The info we post here helps the person who can't just go out and buy a 2nd or 3rd car in order to have fun. Plus, the tricks we learn modding our land yachts can be applied in the future to whatever cars we own. It's all about learning cars, having fun, and doing it reliably.

Now, as for this quality with age thing, let's get one thing straight: metal is not always superior to plastic. In most cases, metal weighs more, and in almost all cases it corrodes more easily. Contrary to popular belief, auto engineers don't just use plastic because it's cheaper and breaks more easily. No, instead they spend millions on figuring out how to reduce weight, maximizing durability, and also lowering cost to the consumer. Plastics are key in this area for research. I remember visiting an injection molding facility here in Ohio a few years ago. They were spending months and lots of funding from one of the Big Three to develop a plastic oil dipstick. This was very challenging, trying to get a petroleum-based material to survive in a hot bath of oil. But it was worth the time & effort because it would save a few ounces of weight. This is the kind of thinking that drives racing development as well. It's called progress, and it happens with time, not the other way around.

Same goes for fasteners. Metal = heavy. Plastic = light. Take those little plastic panel fasteners holding the plastic fenderwells in. I actually prefer them to screws because they're a smart design. They are 10x faster to install/remove, and they don't strip out if used over and over.

When you consider the door handles, I prefer the Rivs design to the handle on my Olds and Dart, again, because of the design. First, handles are a visible design detail, so they must be chromed to look intentional. The Riv's "latches" are a stealth detail, so they receive paint color to blend in with the curves of the car. They integrate into the design, rather than looking like an afterthought. Functionally, the old handles required more effort and coordination to open... push in, pull out. And if you have kids, they'll hang on them. The Riv's is simple... pull up and out. As long as you don't try to open a locked door, they aren't going to break off. Mine haven't anyway. And there's the safety issue, too. Anything hard and sharp that protrudes from the car can cause injury.

Window seals: my car has spent it's entire life outside in the sun. Just lubricate the seals like the manual says, and they last a long time.

I'll give you the rear view mirror thing. They used the wrong adhesive to hold it up. After fixing with a proper (more rigid) adhesive, it probably isn't coming down ever again. Oh, but does the Charger's mirror dim automatically at night? Dies it tell you which direction you're traveling? Does your Charger have the button on the ceiling that remembers your garage door code?

The seatbelt thing is truly a sign of the times. My Olds is the same way. Back in the day, it wasn't mandatory to use a shoulder restraint, so it was separated. It could then be fastened overhead via clips. This was because no one used the shoulder belt. Ironically, it was a nuisance because of design. No one wanted to buckle up twice. They tried to fix the problem with that motorized thing in the '90s, but then people weren't fastening the lap and getting decapitated. After years of trying ideas that didn't work, we went back to using the correct way.

Vehicle weight on older cars is usually more when you consider the options. Curb weight on my Olds was 4500 lb (it ran in line with the Cadillac Coupe Deville and Buick Electra, some of the biggest cars GM ever made), but the curb weight did not include any of the options. Once you added in all the extra metal, it is a 5000 lb sled. The Riviera has a more accurate weight, as most all of the options came standard. Also, remember that the 365 hp my Olds makes is gross hp. By today's standards, it's about 280-5 net hp. Still, it has hella torque down low, and that's a good thing.

When I had the accident, I was moving 45, and the NEON was turning in front of me. I won because I had the weight and momentum. The NEON was totaled for sure, and I had $3500 in damage. If I had stuck something heavier than me, or a stationary object, or if another car had the momentum, there is a good chance I wouldn't be here right now. All that weight can be used against the structure of the car just as easily as it can total a NEON, it just depends on which way the forces are moving. In a different scenario, I could've had 455 cubic inches in sitting in my lap. Modern cars think about impact absorption far more than older ones do. This is why small cars can be safe... they minimize secondary impact.

As for the bad brake lines on the Cutlass, I've fixed some before. I had a double flare tool, a bender, and lots of line. But in this case, virtually every line needed replaced. Try bending a copy of every line for your car; call me when you get them all swapped out.

The Dart was made after '71, so the engine was intended for unleaded. That's sort of a myth anyway. After doing research on this because of the Olds, which was takes leaded fuel, I found that many of the old iron valve seats faired just fine with the change to unleaded. They were hardened as a precaution, but it was only theory.

I agree it is a shame I don't still have the Dart. After taking care of her for a couple years, pampering the car like no other, she literally fell apart, rusting from the inside out. The only response I could get from car people is that old MOPARs are junk, and I should've expected that when I bought it. Even fellow Chysler owners would tell me the cars CANNOT be driven in the winter salt. And because it was unibody, restoration was too expensive for a 20 year old in college. Yes, I was saddened by the whole thing, and swore never to buy a Chrysler product again.

But even if I'd been able to keep her nice, the car was already front heavy with the I-6. To put a 440 in there would be insane, and dangerous. Maybe okay in a straight line, but damn this car was light in the back. It was like a pick-up truck. Worse maybe. And you don't need to tell me about driving in snow. I grew up driving RWDs and trucks in the snow. Imagine the joy I felt during the first winter with the Riv. I'll be straight up honest here... The Riviera with summer performance tires (no M&S) actually is more cooperative in snow than any of my RWD sedans with all weathers. I have never spun out, gone off the road, or gotten stuck in the Riviera.

If I ever buy an old car again, it will be just as you say Jack: for weekends only, not a daily driver. For the track, it'll be a newer car intended for such a purpose, or it will be my daily driver. Everyone loves to see a sleeper at the races.

I love my 68 GS350, but would never want a "mostly factory stock" 60's/70's car as my daily transportation in this day and age. The car is in very good condition, underwent maybe an 85% restoration a while before I bought it, and it's showing it's 30k or so mileage since then. I've owned it 6 years. Very reliable, never had a breakdown, put on a couple thousand miles a year, including a 900 mile trip from WA state, and a 2100 mile trip to OH and back, with a couple dozen 1/4 passes in the middle. In fact, I plan on making a few runs on Saturday, with my ET Streets on, and my newly installed headers/exhaust. It's not particularly fast, hoping for a sub-15 timeslip. Buick never intended their 350 cars to be great track performers, BUT I know a certain blown Buick 350 has run mid 8 sec. quarters... and aluminum heads and single plane intakes have been announced by TA Perf.

Summit has superchargers from $1800 - 5000, depending on what you've got and how much power you want to make.

The Riv's supercharger is nice for stock but the upper limit is in the 400-450 hp range and then you've got to swap it for a turbo. Is a turbo for the Riv going to be an $8000 deal too? Only an insane person would put $10,000+ into engine mods to build a 600 hp fwd car (not counting the guys at ZZP and Intense whose cars are part of their business).

How much farther do you think you will go with the Riv, mileage and mod wise, before you have to drop $4000 for a race transmission? If you've got an intercooler by then, you'll be at $8000 in mods on a car with a resell value in the $2000-$6000 range. You might find a buyer for a $10,000 - $14,000 modded Riv, but there are so many good used vehicles in that price range. More likely you'll do like camlifter, spend a bunch of time demodding and selling everything piece by piece.

AA wrote:

There is adequate performance support for our engine. Dozens of bolt ons an internals are available. I have yet to look for a part for this engine that someone hasn't made.

I recently asked one of the regalgs.org guys why none of the L67 guys are making 1200-1400 hp like the turbo GN guys are. He said no one makes a forged crank for the modern engines. I haven't been shopping for one either, but I'm factoring it in as another limitation on the car.

Door handles - my Charger has the same kind of upward opening handle as the Riv, not one of the push button kind. The Riv's door-unlatcher has always felt cheap and flimsy to me. Compare it to what's on a Lexus. Even an IS 300 has a solid feeling handle.

Jack the R wrote:

...........Door handles - my Charger has the same kind of upward opening handle as the Riv, not one of the push button kind. The Riv's door-unlatcher has always felt cheap and flimsy to me. Compare it to what's on a Lexus. Even an IS 300 has a solid feeling handle.

I love how the Riv's door handles blend in to the body, but I walk on eggshells every time I pull on it. Feels cheap and weak. I don't want to deal with a broken one. And I have 7-10 yr old kids that need to open a door once in a while. Conversely, my 68 Buick has nice solid big heavy chromed steel handles. They are somewhat pitted, so I bought new complete GM oem handle assy's a year or 2 ago, from a Chevy dealer in NC. About $75 to my door total. I'll bet the Buick dealer would want more than that for new Riv handles?

This has been an interesting discussion, for sure. Everyone has their own views/opinions on new and old cars. No one is right, no one is wrong, just differing points of view. I'm fortunate to be able to own a nice piece of 60's Detroit Iron, that I can drive when I WANT to, and not NEED to drive it daily. As for my Riv, I've enjoyed adding a few mild mods, and have a few more in the garage to do. I do this because I see my Riviera as a permanent fixture in my garage or driveway. If the engine pukes on me in the next few years, I'll have it rebuilt. Same for the tranny. It's WORTH it, because I'm not reselling the car. If I had only short term ownership plans, I'd only invest in standard maintenance, no other mods. There's a market for the 95-99 Rivieras, but most of those potential buyers are old guys (like me ) who would "tend" to prefer a stock condition Riv. To the older generation, modded means abused, which can be true.