Old Cars vs. New

Yes, good discussion and good points. I too have no intention of selling mine for a good while. When someone asks me, "So, what is your dream car?" I say, half seriously, "This one, of course!" And that's partly true, I guess. What's great about a Riviera is the blend of performance, comfort, reliability, and style you get for the money. I've looked around, but I can't find that combo available for a better price. Old geezers may think modded=abused, but as long as the insurance adjuster appraises it at $8k, I'm happy.

And Jack, our crank is solid to 1000 hp. Good heavens, what more can you ask from a stock part for a 3.8L V6? The reason there's no aftermarket: no one needs to replace the bottom of our motor! Heck, INTENSE's turbo GTP only makes 800 hp; it runs 9s. The limiting factor for FWD application is broken input shafts, not the crank. Our crankshaft is just one more reason the L67 engine is well-suited for modification.

I doubt you'll find many guys who plan on selling their hot rod, but usually life comes around to force them into that position. I sure didn't want to sell my Charger, but family problems came up that were more important and it was one of the few things I had that had actually retained its value. Everything else I'd bought over the years - money down the drain. I'm glad I didn't have to sell the Charger, but that safety net was there if it'd come down to it. It's still there if I end up with a kid or some other cash drain comes up.

What it comes down to for me is, I don't see the value of the Riv surging any time soon. It is one of the nicer GM cars of the period, but it wasn't a "must have" vehicle by any means. I could have had one new in 99 but I'd forgotten they existed. I think it will go up somewhat in value eventually but be overshadowed by the new RWD cars coming out. It's sort of a reversal of the 60'-70's situation. 60's cars are more desireable than 70's cars because they were built for peformance. 2000's will be more valuable than 90's for the same reason. FWD is the wrong way to build a performance car.

If Rivs should shoot up in value, I'd consider buying a $4000 tranny and putting $10000 in the engine, plus all the time and labor. As things stand, I consider the Charger to be a better investment of time and money. Here are a few eBay auctions for old Mopars -

69 Dodge Dart - $82,409 bid, reserve not met.

68 Dodge Dart Hemi Buy it now - 84,900 (no idea what it went for)

70 Dodge Challenger - current bid $123,101, buy it now $249,500

70 Hemi Cuda Convertible - sold 1.8 million.

Some of those cars are survivors in near perfect factory position, some have had restoration work. The Cuda has had hard knocks and isn't in anything like the original paint.

My Charger will never be worth this much, but the demand increases and the supply decreases every time there's a Dukes of Hazzard movie. It's a better investment of time and money than the Riv, no question.

You're right, Jack... your Charger will never be worth as much as any of those listed, even if you restored it to mint condition and put your own crate Hemi in it. No one else with a late '60s/early '70s Charger in their barn will be selling it for much, either.

The cars in those ebay auctions have reasons they sell for so much. It has nothing to do with being old, being "must haves" or RWD, nor does it have anything to do with their performance potential. It hardly even matters that they're cars. They probably won't be driven anyways. The fact that a couple of them have low original miles helps, but all of these cars have something special about them that makes them a good investment.

• The '69 Dart is 1 of 600 made.

• The '68 Dart Hemi appears to have more $ invested (albeit using new parts) in it than what it's selling for.

• The '70 Challeger Hemi R/T is 1 of 287 made, plus has the rare shift option.

• The '70 Hemi Cuda Conv is one of the rarest cars in the world. 14 were made, only 5 were 4-speeds like this one.

I say, "SO WHAT?!!!" If you can't drive it, why own it? And I laugh at the guy who buys the $250,000 Hemi Challenger... if he drives it on the road or to the track (he won't) and lines up next to me and my FWD '98 Riviera with bolt-on mods, can you guess who wins?

Hint: The car that cost 20x less $$$ ('70 Hemi Challenger runs 14.1 @ 103.2 mph). Not only do I win, but I'll do it with a better launch. And I'll do it with 80k more miles on my car; I'll drive home from the race getting 30 mpg, and I'll drive to work the following morning, ready to smoke any other "challengers".

Talk about being rich and throwing away your money...

It'll be pretty funny when the classic car bubble bursts.

AA wrote:

You're right, Jack... your Charger will never be worth as much as any of those listed, even if you restored it to mint condition and put your own crate Hemi in it. No one else with a late '60s/early '70s Charger in their barn will be selling it for much, either.

I'll ask, but I don't think the Hemi Dart started out life as anything more special than my Charger did. With the same modifications, the Charger should theoretically be worth as much. Maybe more, being a Charger and not a Dart.

The 150K "price to build" figure is probably true if you're paying for a pro shop to do the build. My argument all along has been for someone who wants to do the labor themselves, because they enjoy doing it.

I enjoy doing it, but I don't see any way I could build an $80,000 late model Riv, or even a $20,000 one. Maybe a Silver Arrow, but the market doesn't seem to be showing much appreciation for those either. I think a $10,000 - $15,000 Charger could be doable without going as extreme as the Dart.

AA wrote:

And I laugh at the guy who buys the $250,000 Hemi Challenger... if he drives it on the road or to the track (he won't) and lines up next to me and my FWD '98 Riviera with bolt-on mods, can you guess who wins?

I see no reason to laugh - Challengers didn't start out as 1/4 million dollar cars, and this one won't end as a $1/4 million dollar car either. When the new owner flips it he might buy a Viper or two off the profit.

You might be quicker than this particular stock Challenger. Do you think there is no modded, appreciating Challenger that can beat you? I suspect there are quite a few.

quote: "It'll be pretty funny when the classic car bubble bursts."

If I remember, didn't that happen at the end of the '80s, and then everyone's Hemi Cudas were worthless?

Jack, I know that probably most Hemi-powered cars that are driven and raced are modded, and would destroy me easily. But I think it's funny that someone would pay that much for a car that's only valuable because it's totally stock... probably still has the bias belt tires on. I don't believe in buying cars for investment purposes. I don't think most of these collector types really love cars, it's all about money.

To you points, and modding aside, here's an example where I agree with you on the old vs. new thing: