Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:18 pm
Yes, good discussion and good points. I too have no intention of selling mine for a good while. When someone asks me, "So, what is your dream car?" I say, half seriously, "This one, of course!" And that's partly true, I guess. What's great about a Riviera is the blend of performance, comfort, reliability, and style you get for the money. I've looked around, but I can't find that combo available for a better price. Old geezers may think modded=abused, but as long as the insurance adjuster appraises it at $8k, I'm happy.
And Jack, our crank is solid to 1000 hp. Good heavens, what more can you ask from a stock part for a 3.8L V6? The reason there's no aftermarket: no one needs to replace the bottom of our motor! Heck, INTENSE's turbo GTP only makes 800 hp; it runs 9s. The limiting factor for FWD application is broken input shafts, not the crank. Our crankshaft is just one more reason the L67 engine is well-suited for modification.
'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles ^^^ SOLD ^^^
Jack the R Master
Joined : 2007-01-16Post Count : 8074 Merit : 105
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:56 pm
I doubt you'll find many guys who plan on selling their hot rod, but usually life comes around to force them into that position. I sure didn't want to sell my Charger, but family problems came up that were more important and it was one of the few things I had that had actually retained its value. Everything else I'd bought over the years - money down the drain. I'm glad I didn't have to sell the Charger, but that safety net was there if it'd come down to it. It's still there if I end up with a kid or some other cash drain comes up.
What it comes down to for me is, I don't see the value of the Riv surging any time soon. It is one of the nicer GM cars of the period, but it wasn't a "must have" vehicle by any means. I could have had one new in 99 but I'd forgotten they existed. I think it will go up somewhat in value eventually but be overshadowed by the new RWD cars coming out. It's sort of a reversal of the 60'-70's situation. 60's cars are more desireable than 70's cars because they were built for peformance. 2000's will be more valuable than 90's for the same reason. FWD is the wrong way to build a performance car.
If Rivs should shoot up in value, I'd consider buying a $4000 tranny and putting $10000 in the engine, plus all the time and labor. As things stand, I consider the Charger to be a better investment of time and money. Here are a few eBay auctions for old Mopars -
69 Dodge Dart - $82,409 bid, reserve not met.
68 Dodge Dart Hemi Buy it now - 84,900 (no idea what it went for)
70 Dodge Challenger - current bid $123,101, buy it now $249,500
70 Hemi Cuda Convertible - sold 1.8 million.
Some of those cars are survivors in near perfect factory position, some have had restoration work. The Cuda has had hard knocks and isn't in anything like the original paint.
My Charger will never be worth this much, but the demand increases and the supply decreases every time there's a Dukes of Hazzard movie. It's a better investment of time and money than the Riv, no question.
AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:31 pm
You're right, Jack... your Charger will never be worth as much as any of those listed, even if you restored it to mint condition and put your own crate Hemi in it. No one else with a late '60s/early '70s Charger in their barn will be selling it for much, either.
The cars in those ebay auctions have reasons they sell for so much. It has nothing to do with being old, being "must haves" or RWD, nor does it have anything to do with their performance potential. It hardly even matters that they're cars. They probably won't be driven anyways. The fact that a couple of them have low original miles helps, but all of these cars have something special about them that makes them a good investment.
• The '69 Dart is 1 of 600 made.
• The '68 Dart Hemi appears to have more $ invested (albeit using new parts) in it than what it's selling for.
• The '70 Challeger Hemi R/T is 1 of 287 made, plus has the rare shift option.
• The '70 Hemi Cuda Conv is one of the rarest cars in the world. 14 were made, only 5 were 4-speeds like this one.
I say, "SO WHAT?!!!" If you can't drive it, why own it? And I laugh at the guy who buys the $250,000 Hemi Challenger... if he drives it on the road or to the track (he won't) and lines up next to me and my FWD '98 Riviera with bolt-on mods, can you guess who wins?
Hint: The car that cost 20x less $$$ ('70 Hemi Challenger runs 14.1 @ 103.2 mph). Not only do I win, but I'll do it with a better launch. And I'll do it with 80k more miles on my car; I'll drive home from the race getting 30 mpg, and I'll drive to work the following morning, ready to smoke any other "challengers".
Talk about being rich and throwing away your money...
'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles ^^^ SOLD ^^^
racinfan Addict
Name : Joe Location : Cleveland, OH Joined : 2007-02-05Post Count : 567 Merit : 5
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:17 pm
It'll be pretty funny when the classic car bubble bursts.
Jack the R Master
Joined : 2007-01-16Post Count : 8074 Merit : 105
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:20 pm
AA wrote:
You're right, Jack... your Charger will never be worth as much as any of those listed, even if you restored it to mint condition and put your own crate Hemi in it. No one else with a late '60s/early '70s Charger in their barn will be selling it for much, either.
I'll ask, but I don't think the Hemi Dart started out life as anything more special than my Charger did. With the same modifications, the Charger should theoretically be worth as much. Maybe more, being a Charger and not a Dart.
The 150K "price to build" figure is probably true if you're paying for a pro shop to do the build. My argument all along has been for someone who wants to do the labor themselves, because they enjoy doing it.
I enjoy doing it, but I don't see any way I could build an $80,000 late model Riv, or even a $20,000 one. Maybe a Silver Arrow, but the market doesn't seem to be showing much appreciation for those either. I think a $10,000 - $15,000 Charger could be doable without going as extreme as the Dart.
AA wrote:
And I laugh at the guy who buys the $250,000 Hemi Challenger... if he drives it on the road or to the track (he won't) and lines up next to me and my FWD '98 Riviera with bolt-on mods, can you guess who wins?
I see no reason to laugh - Challengers didn't start out as 1/4 million dollar cars, and this one won't end as a $1/4 million dollar car either. When the new owner flips it he might buy a Viper or two off the profit.
You might be quicker than this particular stock Challenger. Do you think there is no modded, appreciating Challenger that can beat you? I suspect there are quite a few.
AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:21 pm
quote: "It'll be pretty funny when the classic car bubble bursts."
If I remember, didn't that happen at the end of the '80s, and then everyone's Hemi Cudas were worthless?
Jack, I know that probably most Hemi-powered cars that are driven and raced are modded, and would destroy me easily. But I think it's funny that someone would pay that much for a car that's only valuable because it's totally stock... probably still has the bias belt tires on. I don't believe in buying cars for investment purposes. I don't think most of these collector types really love cars, it's all about money.
To you points, and modding aside, here's an example where I agree with you on the old vs. new thing:
'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles ^^^ SOLD ^^^
Last edited by AA on Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:32 am; edited 1 time in total
Jack the R Master
Joined : 2007-01-16Post Count : 8074 Merit : 105
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:13 pm
FWIW, found on Mopower Style tonight while researching the Charger build -
Quote :
The examples you use are some of the heaviest cars that they installed 318's into.
Anyway, the only difference between a 340 and a 318 that matters is the bore size (4.04 vs 3.91). The 318's are always saddled with crappy heads, crappy manifolds, single exhaust, tight converters and tall gears. Its not gonna be a barn-burner like that. When I put headers and duals on my otherwise stock and worn out original 70 318 it felt like i gained 35-50hp, even with the 2bbl.
I haven't had a chance to drive the car with my new combo, but it is as follows:
89 318 block 96 Magnum heads (Verizon Van Fresh baby) MP R/T Springs & Retainers Summit 218/228 @.050, .441/.441 cam (.470/.470 with the 1.6:1 rockers on the magnum heads) Spitfire shorties 2 1/4 duals with summit turbo mufflers Professional Products Crosswind Intake 600 Holley Vacuum Secondary
I know there are some things that Desktop Dyno 2000 won't capture, but here's what it came out with for my combo (head flow numbers for a stock magnum head was input)
379hp@6000rpm 371lb-ft@4500rpm and a good torque curve, SO, not that i'll say its gonna be spot on with my real combination, but its probably fairly close. Mine is a bargain basement bolt together build, less than $1k in all the parts
Plenty of 318 cars well into the 12's on streetable combos
Assuming the poster is right ( I've seen these #'s before but I can't vouch for his setup ), that's nearly 400 hp I could have in my Charger for about the price of headers for the Riv. A small blower that increased power by 25% would, theoretically, get her to 473 hp.
This is just a wee little 318 . . .
AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:21 pm
Keep in mind headers for the Riviera aren't $800 any more. If you don't want the best, they can be had new for $250 online. I'm sure SLP headers for V8s would not be cheap either.
I don't see a price list for that bundle of parts, but am I expected to believe that one can buy a pair of heads, a cam, 16 valve springs, and a carb for under a grand? Or are we pricing used parts here? I couldn't get close to that kind of deal for my 455. The engine rebuild kit alone was $900.
That desktop dyno app looks neat. I wonder if it's expensive?
'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles ^^^ SOLD ^^^
97rivman Fanatic
Name : alex Age : 38 Location : Crete,IL Joined : 2007-06-08Post Count : 484 Merit : 2
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:11 am
AA wrote:
quote: "It'll be pretty funny when the classic car bubble bursts."
If I remember, didn't that happen at the end of the '80s, and then everyone's Hemi Cudas were worthless?
Jack, I know that probably most Hemi-powered cars that are driven and raced are modded, and would destroy me easily. But I think it's funny that someone would pay that much for a car that's only valuable because it's totally stock... probably still has the bias belt tires on. I don't believe in buying cars for investment purposes. I don't think most of these collector types really love cars, it's all about money.
I agree with you, but if there is one car out there that we can all appreciate for its completely underrated power and extreme undeniable and underrespected value, Its the GNX. Or even a GN. A couple bolt ons here and there and your dipping into 11's/12's easily. and its only a v6. Im the kind of person whom, if I had a GNX, I would probably be one of those people that crashes at super high speeds and rips the body off the chassis, I would really try not to, but I wouldnt buy it to let it sit in a showroom and thats for damn sure!!!!
Jack the R Master
Joined : 2007-01-16Post Count : 8074 Merit : 105
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:51 pm
AA wrote:
If I remember, didn't that happen at the end of the '80s, and then everyone's Hemi Cudas were worthless?
I think the value went back up . . .
If you EVER see that happen again (worthless Hemi Cudas), buy as fucking many of them as you can. You will not regret it.
AA wrote:
Jack, I know that probably most Hemi-powered cars that are driven and raced are modded, and would destroy me easily. But I think it's funny that someone would pay that much for a car that's only valuable because it's totally stock...
C'mon, you've got to appreciate automotive history. I can totally see owning a car that is just the way it was back in the day. The highly modified customs are too modern. They're today's cars, not yesterday's. They don't give the feel of what it was like back then.
If I had the means, there are cars I would buy just because they remind me of my grandparent's generation. Those people are going and gone. Their luxury barges are extremely out of style, but I'd have them in a heartbeat if I could. I'd love to have a genuine hippie custom van, as much like the one my dad used to have as possible, when I was 2. That's the first vehicle I remember. Maybe if I get rich I'll try to recreate it.
I've even regretted the interior resto work I've done to the Charger - it's already starting to feel like it's not the car I had when I was younger. I almost wish I'd left it ratty and slow but "the way it was."
Maybe when you're middle aged and have kids doing things dumber than baggie pants, piercings, and dubs, you'll understand. Hemi Cuda Convertible with psychadelic paint job - 1.8 million. Going back in time - priceless.
AA wrote:
Keep in mind headers for the Riviera aren't $800 any more. If you don't want the best, they can be had new for $250 online. I'm sure SLP headers for V8s would not be cheap either.
I thought the guy Jason got his knock-off headers from got shut down by SLP?
AA wrote:
I don't see a price list for that bundle of parts, but am I expected to believe that one can buy a pair of heads, a cam, 16 valve springs, and a carb for under a grand? Or are we pricing used parts here?
My guess is the heads are used, possibly pulled off a wrecked Dakota R/T in a yard or something like that. Would it really matter if they had a few miles on them (maybe they don't)? He put in new springs and retainers.
Some of the other stuff I can price -
summit cam - $80 for the kit, $52 cam only.
MP valve spring retainers - $8/ea
MP rocker shaft springs - $34/set of 8
Holley 600 cfm carb - $345
Spitfire Shorties - I can't find the exact ones he's talking about - looks like $300-$350
Professional Products Crosswind Intake - $154
I get $1027 assuming new (minus the heads) and $350 for the headers . He may have gotten some of it used or found better deals than I did.
AA wrote:
I couldn't get close to that kind of deal for my 455. The engine rebuild kit alone was $900.
Mr. Gasket's rebuild kit for Olds 455 is $37.95. What else were you replacing?
Is the Olds compatible with 454 Chevy parts? If so you can get the same deal on a cam.
If not, maybe you should consider pulling the Olds engine and dropping a Chevy in. Or trade for an easier car to work with.
AA wrote:
That desktop dyno app looks neat. I wonder if it's expensive?
It's $75.
AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:30 am
I appreciate automotive history. I like being in a time machine as much as the next guy. But I don't believe in paying 100x what a vehicle is actually worth because it has "matching numbers", or because only 200 were built with a certain shift option. A great example is the GNX, with only a few hundred made. You will pay $35k or more for one. Or, you can buy a nice GN for $10k and make it much faster than a GNX for much less money. And you can drive it, which is what makes cars fun.
Here's a prime example of someone taking an old car and making it better...
I stumbled across this Stingray at a race event this summer. I thought: cool, an old Vette. I really like this body style in particular. It's one of the most beautiful cars anywhere, and a reminder of why classic cars are so awesome.
Then I peered into the cabin, expecting to see cool vintage style, but I saw something very different:
Puzzled, I thought: why would someone modernize the interior of this old, collectible, fun, beautiful automobile? And then I saw the reason. I was way more impressed with this than a stock Vette. Here we have the best of both worlds - classic style + modern performance, reliability, and efficiency.
If I want to go back in time, any vintage car will do. I've been to many car shows, and sat on quite a few bench seats, staring at fuzzy dice. Neat. But it takes something truly inspired to catch me off guard like this LS7 Stingray did. It's clever, it's old, it's new, and most importantly, it's fast!
'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles ^^^ SOLD ^^^
Jack the R Master
Joined : 2007-01-16Post Count : 8074 Merit : 105
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:31 pm
The day before yesterday I went into town to see a General Lee replica one of the local shops is working on. I used to think General Lee replicas were cheesy, not anymore. The only car I can think of I might have been more impressed by was a Lamborghini Diablo. I used to think the rim/tire combination on the Lee should have been left in the 70's, now it's one of my all-time favorites.
This one was getting a full restoration/conversion. It started life as a 440 Charger 500. It's now got a computer controlled, fuel injected 500 cube Hemi. Making "only " 400 horsepower, oddly enough - I'm sure the owner can pump up the numbers if he wants to.
It had $19,000 of resto work done. The mechanic said it was worth an "easy $40,000" as-is. But he said it would be worth $70,000 if it had been restored to stock. Personally he has a 69 327 Camaro stuck in a climate controlled garage, not being driven. A 327 isn't one of the super-fancy limited edition cars, but he said he'd give 18,000 for it a year a go and had been offered $35,000 for it already. He's looking for another to buy as an investment. Figures he'll wait a few years, sell, and get a house (Keep in mind I don't live in L.A. where it takes half a mil to get a house. My aunt sold a nice single story home for $21,000).
That's why you buy old stock vehicles and don't drive them.
It has me rethinking my car-modding strategy though. I think you can get your money back by modding an old car for performance instead of a new one, but it's still throwing money away compared to keeping it stock.
SpaceBar Aficionado
Name : Patrick Age : 38 Location : Quincy, MA Joined : 2007-04-08Post Count : 1199 Merit : 3
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:46 am
Where do you live that you can get a house for $21,000. I'd like to move there.
Jack the R Master
Joined : 2007-01-16Post Count : 8074 Merit : 105
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:44 am
SpaceBar wrote:
Where do you live that you can get a house for $21,000. I'd like to move there.
I wouldn't suggest it unless you've got a good paying job you can work remotely. There's a reason why that house sold for so little - because everyone is so broke. Come down here and you will be too.
AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:35 pm
You can buy a house for $10k anywhere if you look hard enough. I found one here in Columbus, only a couple miles from houses costing $400k. I'll just say, after looking at it, the lot would be worth more if you knocked the house down.
'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles ^^^ SOLD ^^^
Jack the R Master
Joined : 2007-01-16Post Count : 8074 Merit : 105
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:51 pm
There wasn't anything wrong with my aunt's house. It's just in a dying small town with no jobs. I would have loved to have had it.
SpaceBar Aficionado
Name : Patrick Age : 38 Location : Quincy, MA Joined : 2007-04-08Post Count : 1199 Merit : 3
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:11 pm
Jack the R wrote:
SpaceBar wrote:
Where do you live that you can get a house for $21,000. I'd like to move there.
I wouldn't suggest it unless you've got a good paying job you can work remotely. There's a reason why that house sold for so little - because everyone is so broke. Come down here and you will be too.
For $21,000 I could buy it and stay up here and work until I pay it off then move down there. Sounds like a plan to me.
jimmyriv Junkie
Name : James Age : 80 Location : Muskegon, Michigan Joined : 2007-03-16Post Count : 781 Merit : 8
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:10 pm
What happened to the old car bashing?
Jack the R Master
Joined : 2007-01-16Post Count : 8074 Merit : 105
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:36 pm
SpaceBar wrote:
Jack the R wrote:
SpaceBar wrote:
Where do you live that you can get a house for $21,000. I'd like to move there.
I wouldn't suggest it unless you've got a good paying job you can work remotely. There's a reason why that house sold for so little - because everyone is so broke. Come down here and you will be too.
For $21,000 I could buy it and stay up here and work until I pay it off then move down there. Sounds like a plan to me.
But what would you do when you got here?
jimmyriv - We must have come to a consensus?
SpaceBar Aficionado
Name : Patrick Age : 38 Location : Quincy, MA Joined : 2007-04-08Post Count : 1199 Merit : 3
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:15 am
Jack the R wrote:
SpaceBar wrote:
Jack the R wrote:
SpaceBar wrote:
Where do you live that you can get a house for $21,000. I'd like to move there.
I wouldn't suggest it unless you've got a good paying job you can work remotely. There's a reason why that house sold for so little - because everyone is so broke. Come down here and you will be too.
For $21,000 I could buy it and stay up here and work until I pay it off then move down there. Sounds like a plan to me.
But what would you do when you got here?
jimmyriv - We must have come to a consensus?
I wouldn't have a house or rent to pay for. The pay can't be that bad can it?
Shintsu Expert
Name : Shintsu Joined : 2007-10-13Post Count : 2979 Merit : -16
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:38 am
Hate to be the bearer of bad news but muscle cars weren't really all that fast. My dad watches powerblock on Spike TV occasionally and the show that goes back to muscle cars likes to find classic rare examples of high performance versions. They talk about it being lightning fast and you come to find out that it does 0-60 in 8.5 seconds and a 1/4 mile in about 17 seconds. I haven't checked this but I think a Toyota Corolla might be at those specs today and it's a dumpy little four banger.
Muscle cars were fast in their day but they're not much more than just big blustery loud things anymore. Some idiot kid around here has an ugly old 1970 (I think) Mach 1 Junkstang...psh, I laugh everytime I see that thing. He has this cocky little "I drive an old car, I'm a badass" look about him that's just really annoying. Too many people who appreciate muscle cars foolishly think they're better than modern cars. The cold reality is, a lot of old muscle cars would get beat by a Honda Civic. Think about relativity, in the 1910s a car that would do 60-80 mph was fast as hell and crazy to think about. Now a three cylinder Geo Metro can get to 60 faster than those old things could probably hit 30.
Cars started being fast enough to smoke muscle cars in the 90's. The 80's had the fuel crunch to blame for the low horsepower vehicles of the time. Doesn't mean old muscle cars don't sound like they're trying to do a lot of work, but they all pretty much sucked gas down like no ones business (but gas was cheap then so who cared). I'm not trying to put anyone down but really, look up some of the numbers and you'll be surprised. Stuff like old cars with 440s and stuff I've seen where they say how fast it is and I always can't help but laugh, realizing that most of the cars in C&D (Stupid Utility Vehicles included) are as fast as or faster than it. Think about a big bad muscle car all mint original that has the stock motor and stuff having trouble beating a Trailblazer. And losing to a Buick Enclave. lol, yeah...it could happen. Advancements in technology have bumped everything up. Just in C&D they said most sedans have no less than 250 hp or more. And think back to the 90's when most had 200 hp or less - back when our 3800 Series II was the king for power in sedans. Hell, the Pontiac G8 GT has 361 hp, the junky new Taurus SHO has 365 hp, the Cadillac CTS has 304 hp out of a V6 and 556 hp out of the V8 CTS-V, the Lincoln MKS has 355 hp, the Hyundai Genesis has 375 hp, Chargers/300s are supposedly 340 hp (If their ratings are to be believed), hell, I just looked these up as I typed them in and none of those have less than 300 hp. Shit, the Mustang GT has 300 hp and these cars are all sedans and have more power. How insane is that? And the new Camry only has 268 hp - Toyota even when they try to put out more power still manage to trail the pack with anything even remotely speedy. lol, and I remember thinking the Camry must be quick with 268 hp...damn, our Rivs (save for the folks on here who've done quite a bit of mods) would get smoked by most of the sedans being produced today. Not too long ago I remember our cars were still faster than new cars - what the hell happened lol.
There are rare examples of old cars that are faster than some newer ones but there's a certain point where you no longer own an old car, more or less an old frame and body with a new car motor and new car parts all over it. I respect classic/muscle cars in the sense of driving them as they were made because it is pretty timeless. Otherwise it's just a race car that looks like whatever the body happens to be. I'll end at this, V8s of the muscle car variety sound pretty similar if you ask me. Whereas you can look up right now a BMW M3 E92 with a V8 and hear a totally different sound than a Aston Martin V8, and yet still a different sound from a Lexus LS460, which sounds way different than a Ferarri 355. The characteristic sound is so different between these cars. But to be dead honest...I can't tell you that a 350 sounds dramatically different than a 440 or any other size you want to name. Sure there might be one that sounds way different but they all sound so similar to me. I can't hear the difference, other than I can tell their V8 is an old car V8 and not a newer one. I don't know what it is but they do sound quite different than newer ones but otherwise too similar for my liking.
AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:04 am
Quote :
what the hell happened lol.
Simply, it's called progress. If cars got worse over time, they wouldn't be an interest of mine.
I think the real muscle car argument is that automakers dropped the ball starting in 1970, and by '73 it was rolling downhill pretty fast. It took us 30 years to get back to where we should have been performance-wise, and that's a lot of lost ground. But in that time we learned about making cars safer, better handling, longer lasting, and more efficient, so not all was lost.
There is more than performance in the appreciation of muscle cars, though. Their styling was so good that we have many new cars trying to mimic their looks. And even though their HP and track specs weren't better than today's best cars, they had torque to make them fun to drive. The fact that all the V-8 engines sounded the same was indicative of their similar design, and was a good thing. It meant modification was easier and less expensive. Nowadays, every car's engine and suspension design is so specialized that it can take thousands just to add a small performance increase.
I have to say there is some value in simplicity, which muscle cars had. They didn't try to improve your track times with fancy computers. A driver had to be able to drive. A good driver could do amazing things with a seemingly incapable car. Newer cars are equipped with all kinds of technology that will enable any idiot to get behind the wheel and do a hot lap with a good time. However, sometimes the technology can get in the way for someone who really knows how to extract the potential from an older, more simplified car. A good example of this would be comparing the Ferrari F40 vs. some of their newer, "technically more capable" cars:
'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles ^^^ SOLD ^^^
Last edited by AA on Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:35 am; edited 1 time in total
BMD Aficionado
Name : BMD Location : Canada Joined : 2009-04-28Post Count : 1161 Merit : 36
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:53 am
@ Kevin- You aren’t the bearer of bad news at all. More like a fountain of misinformation. What on earth have you based this info on. The 2009 Toyota Corolla is rated at 132 hp. In 1970 GM had the 454 LS6 rated at 450hp w 500lb ft, Chrysler had 426 Hemi rated at 425hp w 490lb ft, and Ford had the 429 Cobra Jet rated at 375hp w 450lb ft.. And these numbers were conservatively set to help keep insurance premiums down. The torque is a key number that is minimal in today’s car. That’s the number the bites into the blacktop and launches you backwards. The reason why new cars can’t deliver that punch is because everything is computer controlled an limits the amount of fuel when you hit the gas. Also, I don’t know how much a Corolla weighs, but a 1968 Charger weighs about 3200 lbs and could do the ¼ mile in just over 12 seconds. And this is bone stock, without any tuning or mods. With a little work from the owner you were seeing ¼ times of under 10 seconds. The fact that you call them blustery and loud tells me that you obviously never driven in one or been to the track and is one big reason why you can't tell the difference between the way a 350 sounds and a 440. If the sound a finely tuned V8 doesn’t get you excited then you really aren’t a car guy. What cars in the 90’s are you refereeing to that could “smoke” muscle cars, a Viper, Corvette, Acura NSX? Those were a handful of top of the line, top price cars that cost 5 times what it would coast you buy a muscle car at the time. I agree with Aaron when he says " in that time we learned about making cars safer, better handling, longer lasting, and more efficient." I realize that modern cars are pretty damn quick, but I’ve seen many races in my time and I have never seen a stock Honda beat a stock muscle car. I think you might watching little too much TV, but while you there watch Bullitt and let me know if you can hear the difference in the sound of the motors. By the way that kid driving around that “Mach 1 Junkstang...psh ( you think)” is bad ass because by definition that is what muscle cars are.
Shintsu Expert
Name : Shintsu Joined : 2007-10-13Post Count : 2979 Merit : -16
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:48 pm
Just had to start again, that's fine. I'll play...
You say misinformation because like those old farts you want to buy into this stupid shit that muscle cars are still bad ass 'cause they go VROOM VROOM VROOM when you rev them. They WERE fast at one point. They WERE awesome. Now they're not. Only to other people obsessed with outdated vehicles. Muscle cars are outdated relics. They're old junk. The fact people like you obsess and ooze over them is pathetic. They're not worth anything more than being tossed in a junkyard. They're outdated, inefficient carbureted gas hogs with no power. You want a real car, with real power worth looking at that will annihilate, you don't want to look at old sluggish pokey overweight muscle cars. I'll pull my old standbys out again:
Spoiler:
Here's a whole line of better things to desire
Muscle car gonna beat this wagon? Nope.
Won't hold a candle to this
You kidding me?
lulz
lol, nope
And this is the cream of the crop, but for good reason
And yes, they're all expensive - because quality costs money! Luxury costs money! Speed costs money! Real speed anyways. If you want a lot of noise, muscle cars are great for that, won't deny it.
There is nothing impressive about a Mach 1. It's ugly, it's slow, and it's way too expensive to buy nowadays. So here it is:
Wow, what a dream car. That's something worth saving for your life and just desiring so badly huh? Totally escapes me...I'm far from the Honda lover - really don't like them to be honest - but this strikes me as a hell of a lot more fun and power than that old sorry Mach 1
So go ahead, bash me, whatever. You started this by calling me a liar when I'm telling the truth. If you're too senile to admit old cars aren't all that fast then you're living the lie. Enjoy it while they're still around...Oh, btw this is the 21st century we use LITRES not cubic inch anymore...
Boattail Bill Fanatic
Name : Bill Age : 67 Location : Carson City, NV Joined : 2008-11-22Post Count : 381 Merit : 4
Subject: Re: Old Cars vs. New Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:25 pm
Shintsu wrote:
Now a three cylinder Geo Metro can get to 60 faster than those old things could probably hit 30.
Your arguments would be more persuasive if you didn't exaggerate to the point of being ridiculous. I have a 4 cylinder Suzuki Swift (a slightly peppier version of the 3 cylinder Geo Metro), and a few years ago, I was trying to determine if my stock '71 Riviera could qualify for the "130 MPH Club" at Bonneville Salt Flats. At that time, the Rivi hadn't run for a few years, so it was at a mechanic's getting fixed up so it would run again. In the meantime, I was trying to get an idea of how fast I could get to in a standing mile with my other, lower performance cars. One of the cars I used was the Swift. It's speed was nowhere close to what the '71 Rivi was, once I got it running again, and most people don't even consider the '71 Rivi a "muscle car"
I also know people who can tell the difference in sound between different V8 engines. I suspect you can't tell the difference because you probably don't hang around and pay as close attention to as many old V8s as you do these newer engines. I don't know what it is, but I could almost always tell the difference in the sound of an (old V8) Riviera from other cars.