Old Cars vs. New

This is part of what I love about my old Buick(just installed):
Beats the heck out of the Grant wheel I removed...

But I guess it's really not safe, since there's no airbag in it.

I know what you mean, Dave. My Olds wheel looks a little like your Buick's, but I know the Riviera has the "better" one.

I'd guess your Olds and the 69 and up Buicks used the same sport(rallye) steering wheel. 68 is the only year that Buick offered this simulated wood wheel, it's larger in diameter, has a deeper dish, and is actually the same wheel that you could get in many GM models in 67 and 68, including the 'vettes. I could buy a nice used one with really no defects, for around $650... I picked this one up for $100. It's got 4 cracks, as you can see, but it works for me. A good restoration costs more than buying a real nice used wheel, believe it or not.

Mine's a little more formal, but similar thickness. It's the original wheel as far as I know:

i would love to own a old car. f..k FI ,im sure with the right carb combo i could get decent mileage...

AA wrote:

Jack, I'd be careful using the word "can't" -

Well if you want to build a tube frame car and bolt the body panels of a Riv on it, anything's possible.

AA wrote:

When you modify an older vehicle, you usually do it with newer parts having better tolerances.

I've been thinking about this and I believe it's only true in the sense that there are more 2009 parts on the shelves in 2009 than there are 1969 parts on the shelves.

It's also true that there are guys who can afford to build a brand new 2009 "69" Camaro or Mustang from year one, with modern engines, brakes, and suspensions, but those aren't the usual guys building muscle cars.

I'd say the "usual" muscle car guy is going to be building with parts that are little to no better than parts available in the 60's. Or even the same parts. They could get aluminum cylinder heads from Edelbrock that have benefitted from computer modelling of the air flow. But those are expensive. More likely they'll go for a port and polish of the stock heads. They could convert to FI, but more likely they'll go for a bigger carb that is not significantly more advanced than a 60's carb. Summit even sells refurbished original Q-jets.

If you took a poll of muscle car owners on this site, I suspect you'll find not many are using parts that are more high tech than the ones from back in the day. They're doing the same basic hot rodding tricks from 40 years ago, not applying new technology.

robotennis61 wrote:

i would love to own a old car. f..k FI ,im sure with the right carb combo i could get decent mileage...

No matter how well you get your carbuerated engine tuned, I think the aerodynamics of the old cars are going to be impossible to get around. The 3 speed transmission won't help either, if that's what you end up with.

I researched converting to FI a year ago, and a lot of people thought FI was not more efficient than a well tuned carb. You've got to find a guy who can teach you how to tune a carb though, and carb guys are getting scarce. You have to tune for the day's weather, which can mean tuning very frequently if you want top performance. Some carbs can be ruined if the engine backfires. All in all they were phased out for good reason.

Jack the R wrote:

I researched converting to FI a year ago, and a lot of people thought FI was not more efficient than a well tuned carb. You've got to find a guy who can teach you how to tune a carb though, and carb guys are getting scarce. You have to tune for the day's weather, which can mean tuning very frequently if you want top performance. Some carbs can be ruined if the engine backfires. All in all they were phased out for good reason.

We can do much, much more with the FI 455 than we could with a carb. You can take a big, lumpy cam and bring it down to a smooth idle. With computer controlled timing, we can do so much more tuning because we can make timing adjustments without dealing with mechanical or vacuum variables. It's all computer controlled...

It was expensive. We had to buy the speed pro (FAST) engine management controller. We had a custom plumbed intake manifold for the injectors - it could have been done with a throttle body injected unit, but they aren't as good as a dry throttle body, plus we'd need much bigger injectors which don't idle as well. We had to tune it ourselves, at the time nobody else knew how and we only had a 'chevy 350' tune to start with. We had a ton of wiring to do, to get the injectors and fuel pump wired up properly. We eat fuel pumps like there's no tomorrow, running a high pressure _external_ fuel pump sucks. We are looking at an in-tank conversion because the heat is just killing the pumps over and over again. We actually have 3 fuel pumps in the car, plus a sump in the rear of the tank where 2 of them draw fuel from...

But we still believe it was all worth it to this day.

The car is 40 years old. It clearly has issues a 40 year old car has. The front suspension needs work and some parts that are not available anymore. It gets quite.. umm squirrely I guess you would call it. But we are probably going to migrate the drivetrain over to my LeSabre, so we can enjoy that car more!

I'm not experienced enough with carbs to argue with you. How much did converting to FI cost you? The kits I see are in the $3-4000 area. Enough to buy a built 3.8 and IC, maybe get it installed.

I'm not saying that I wish technology never advanced and that we were all still adjusting carbs according to the forecast, like Jack eludes to above. But that in and of itself was what owning a car meant back then. Getting under the hood aquiring a better understanding of what makes your car drive better. In some cases it was a requirement. I know some people today who don't even know how to open their hood. The owner is being removed from the ownership experience. The cars today can park themselves and pretty soon drive themselves, why don't we all just fast forward to the day when we can all say " Beam me up Scottie"!

Jack the R wrote:

I'm not experienced enough with carbs to argue with you. How much did converting to FI cost you? The kits I see are in the $3-4000 area. Enough to buy a built 3.8 and IC, maybe get it installed.

It was about $4000. Keep in mind this was more than 10 years ago too.

$4000 sounds right.

I wonder if I could get an entire 3rd Gen Hemi drivetrain for that much?

JR,
I think YearOne is doing complete engines now, including Hemi's, with a decent warranty.

Yeah, $15-20k for the engine alone. Worth it if you've got the money, but I don't have that kind of money. I spotted a 3rd gen hemi w/transmission on Ebay for $2500. 60,000 miles on it but that ain't too bad.

I agree with Dave about the steering wheel being one of my favorite things about my old car.
This one was only available on a Buick and only during 1969 and 1970.
Its a 16" wheel and has a "thumb groove". (Daves wheel appears to be 16" also)

Lots of them were ruined by people using them to hang onto while climbing in and out of the car or in the case of the straight shift cars people would jerk on them when they were banging gears and bend them.



Bert

Mopar "Tuff" steering wheel. With it's small diameter and thick grip, it's considered by Mopar fans to be one of the best factory steering wheels (of the muscle car era, I assume). This is not the wheel I have. Mine is huge and skinny like ya'lls.

ibmoses wrote:

This one was only available on a Buick and only during 1969 and 1970.
Its a 16" wheel and has a "thumb groove". (Daves wheel appears to be 16" also)....

Yep, the 68's were 16", but were thinner. It's a VERY different feel than the Grant wheel, which was much like Jack's Mopar pic, but w/o that center cap (ugh, IMHO)

The Tuff center cap ain't pretty but which one would you rather crack your head against?

Imo, Riviera's airbag-equipped is the best.

AA wrote:

Imo, Riviera's airbag-equipped is the best.

When they first started putting the controls on steering wheels I recall thinking that was an absurd idea, that it was ridiculous. That was just one of the many changes that were made that I never saw coming. Those steering wheel controls may have saved some lives by preventing drivers from being distracted while fiddling with the radio.

Bert

Jack the R wrote:

The Tuff center cap ain't pretty but which one would you rather crack your head against?

Well duh, neither...

Car owners are keeping vehicles longer - new buying trend predicted:



Link: https://www.polk.com/company/news/average_age_of_vehicles_reaches_record_high_according_to_polk

Had some time today and found this old thread started 2007. Very quickly a thread regarding buying an older, perhaps classic auto, turned from 1st pictures of a 1966 T-Bird and a 1963 T-Bird into a tread having no relation to the original post... That first post is what caught my attention.
Personal as I helped my parents pick out a new 1963 T-Bird, became my first car at age 16, early 1967. Then in late 1965, Dad went to buy a 1966 Mustang, but I talked him into buying a 1966 T-Bird Town Landau that became my second car in 1969.

Then very fast the thread turned into a thread about HP and reliability and pages of posts that had nothing to offer regarding the original post. Post after post did not relate to the original post. I am happy so many young people like their Rivera’s but disappointed some of these new car guys have no concept of auto history or respect for why some cars are considered “Classics”.

No one said that old cars handle better than today’s cars or that they didn't have mechanical issues. But when you worked on them you didn't hook up a PC to tune it. Now, in 2012, parts for my 14 year old Riviera are hard to get, my GM dealership is hard pressed to find a mechanic that can work on a 14-15 year old Riviera. Last year my GM dealership had to fly in an old guy mechanic from Toronto to Ottawa to fix stuff on my 1998 Riv.

Buying a 50s-70s auto is not about HP, not about gas mileage, not about build quality. It is about a personal passion for an auto style and what that auto represents to an individual.

My 1998 Riv. is still less than 70,000 miles. Do I want my Riviera to be as fast as my 2011 Camaro? No. Will I ever modify my Riv. to go faster of sound louder, No. But I do enjoy reading threads on this site for those that put in much effort to make their cars go faster.

The last gen Riviera was one of the last two door full size luxury American autos. I appreciate it for what it is, an American full size luxury two door coupe with unique styling. My Riv. was never designed to be a muscle car.

Fact is our last gen. Rivera’s does not have current collector value. I follow collector car values. Not in my remaining lifetime will our last generation Riv. be a collectable (next ten years – I am an old fart in my early 60s). However, I predict a 25 year old last gen. Riv, numbers matching factory stock model will be pushing $30,000 for a low mileage example by 2023. Fact: you could buy a 1963 T-Bird convertible in 1988 for about $3,000, rust free. 2012, try to buy a rusted 1963 T-Bird convertible for under $15,000 that could be restored for more than $20,000 - 40,000 shop cost (best example 1963 T-Bird convertible Roadster sold for $125,000 3 years ago).

Enjoy doing mods. Fact is, if you want to get best bucks for you Riv. in the future, keep it factory stock. Because today, and tomorrow, no one is going to pay for your modifications. We put money into our Rivera’s because we love the car. Nothing more. Darn, I already spent more than $5,000 on my 1998 Riviera than I ever expect back if it was sold.

Regarding the OP from 2007. Five years later, even 1966 and 1963 T-Bird hardtops have gone up 7-15 thousand dollars for a rust free example needing restoration. Hard to find a restorable convertible for under $25,000 and restoration will cost an additional $20,000-30,000. Believe me because I have been in the market to buy a 1963 or 1966 T-Bird for at least five years.

I enjoy reading threads on this site regarding how younger Riv. owners mod. their rides. At the same time, respect that there are older Riv. owners that read this site, seldom feel a need to post, that want to maintain their Rivera’s, keep them factory stock.

Please do not respond unless you read all 7-pages of this thread going back to 2007. Hate it when people respond to a thread and only look at the last few responses and not take the time to read the entire thread.

PS: reading 7 pages of posts back to 2007, most Reponses thought OP choices of a 1966 or 1963 T-Bird silly. If OP had bought a 1963 or 1966 T-Bird hardtop back in 2007, did not restore it, in 2012 OP would have made about $800 per year profit just to put the Bird in a garage. Doubt if your 401K or other investments did as well in the last five years.

Al,

Thanks for reviving this thread! I reread the whole thing just to see what transpired. The most negative voice throughout the thread is no longer with our group. He officially 'trolled' us… He was very good at that.

I respectfully disagree about the rest of the thread not being related to the OP. The OP was about buying a '60s era car and daily driving it. What kinds of things would be involved in turning a 40 year old car into a reliable daily driver. Most of the followup discussion IS relative, discussing old cars, using modern technology in old cars, comparing older safety standards to modern safety standards, etc. Even though the discussion strays from the originally T-bird thoughts, it is certainly relative (we are not, after all, a T-bird forum!)

I definitely agree with you about the late gen Riv not being 'Collectible' in the collector car sense of the term. It is difficult to find a modern car that fits the collectible model. However, it is still a very nice car and a solid platform that has proven over the last 14 years to have some holding power. That said, there are a lot of modern cars where they have figured how to increase the longevity of parts to extremes. Other places where manufacturers take precautions NOT to have cars last forever (ungreaseable ball joints?!!?)

In the last year I have nearly completed reviving my '73 LeSabre. It is registered and driving again, with a 455 under the hood. I just went to work on the brake master cylinder and booster, and sure enough broke off the brake lines as described in one of the middle posts. All the brake lines are indeed rusty. I was lucky enough to be able to locate a shop that makes these:



so I can avoid the fate of the mid-80s cutlass mentioned earlier. Not that I would discard my car over a few hand-bent brake lines, but this was a job I was NOT looking forward to. Now it will be much easier. This job is all too common in 40+ year old cars, and again most certainly a factor in deciding to DD a 60's era car. Stuff is old. Worn out. Who knows when you may need to stab the brakes and suddenly a ball joint brakes off… or a spring snaps… or who knows what?

I also don't expect anyone else to work on this car. I wouldn't expect anyone to want to. There may come a time when I need to let someone else work on it (alignment?) and I am sure I will be hovering over it the entire time. It is not a collectors item. I am repairing body panels as needed to make it solid and safe, not a show or collector piece.

So my '73 will be driven and enjoyed, but not relied on as a DD. I will certainly drive it to work occasionally and use it often, but will not have to rely on it as such (even though it is a VERY reliable drivetrain). I do not expect it to collect value. I realize the car is worthless to anyone except me, so I feel comfortable knowing that any money I do put into it I will never get back.