FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads

I wish I could do it but I don't have a second car, and if you've seen my other thread, we're already short one and mine will probably have to be used by my parents until we get our next one. I can't risk my own car/life at the hands of an unskilled, inexperienced me. When I'm older and have a job, I'll have a new car for commuting and a used car for fun, probably another Riviera if conditions allow. Then I'll do all this work myself to try and learn the car inside and out. For now, I have to have professionals work on it.


I'd love to do the work myself, and I do work on my car a little, but I limit myself to the most basic of things because I simply don't trust myself with something as complex as a car, no matter how simple the individual systems are. Thanks for the offers to help though, I appreciate it!

I can respect that, Ilan. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" makes sense for a lot of people. For what it's worth, my situation isn't much different from yours. The Riv has been my only mode of transport since I bought it in '03. If it ever broke down, I'd be forced to rent a car until it's up and running. Everything I've done requires I finish the job in 1 or 2 days max. Most of the things I do take a few hours at most. I've dropped the ball a couple times, but fortunately luck was on my side in those cases.

There is a flip side to tinkering and maintenance - you begin to learn the car's mechanics, and you learn to notice when things don't look right - before they break. So in a sense, the idea of "leaving it alone" can be more risky than being in touch with your vehicle's operating condition. Owning several cars, I've learned that ignoring stuff is a type of neglect that usually results in a problem. The only way I could know as much about my car is if I paid someone to inspect it weekly. That's $50-100/week I don't have. And even then, I still wouldn't know as much as I do without our network of Riviera enthusiasts to help me when I need it.

I've been through a lot of different brake systems, and except for their absolute heat capacity, I LOVE my Riviera stock brakes.

Maybe I'm reading this thread wrong, but if you have a stock system, I don't think you can go wrong with the factory ceramic brake pads...

But for the fact that I had to replace the warped front rotors after I bought the car, I am exTREMEly happy with the initial bite, the one-toe pressure requirement, and the silent, dustless behavior of my Delco ceramic pads...

Raybestos is an OEM for Delco - I'm pretty sure the factory pads are also "Carquest Blue" Ceramic.

And you are right, the factory pads are essentially dustless and stop well. I do not think they stop as well as EBCs Redstuff once warm, but are more than adequate stoppers and make essentially no dust; I would use them again.

Albertj

Not sure what you're talking about with the pads making no dust...after a couple of days of light driving after a good wash my wheels are spotty and dirty again.

If you get dust like that, then someone has put a different type of pad on the car... I literally only wash my car once a year (garaged, with Rejex aircraft sealant on the exterior,) and the only thing on the wheels is road dirt after winter.

Checking the pads is very easy. Once the wheel is off, turn the steering wheel so that the rear of the rotor turns out of the wheel well, then use a flashlight if necessary to look along the rotor surface up into the end of the caliper and see how much of each pad is left on between the rotor and the pad's backing plate. This is one of those measurements that I just store in my head as a visual, but I'd guess that an 1/8" is the minimum thickness that you want to see before changing the pads. If they are so equipped, you will also see the warning "squeeler" on one end or the other of at least one pad.

It is really an easy and cheap job to replace those annoying pads, especially given the tips for cheaper brands that Albert J listed above.

Finally, I can appreciate your intelligent reservations about not biting off more than you can chew at your age. I was spoiled by growing up in a garage that my family ran for 55 years, so I always had people and books and parts houses for reference. I strongly suggest that the best thing any of us can do to maintain our Rivieras is to buy a set of the factory G-Body manuals off of eBay. Right now, for example, you can buy a set for $60 with shipping at:

Link

Good luck and good Riv-ing.

Quote :

Maybe I'm reading this thread wrong, but if you have a stock system, I don't think you can go wrong with the factory ceramic brake pads...

But for the fact that I had to replace the warped front rotors after I bought the car, I am exTREMEly happy with the initial bite, the one-toe pressure requirement, and the silent, dustless behavior of my Delco ceramic pads...

I have also been through a lot (5 or 6) of brake rotor/pad combos on this car, and have done a lot of reading and asking on the subject. Most will agree that stock or aftermarket ceramics will leave very little dust and make very little noise. They also bite very well, but the way ceramics deal with heat is one of the very reasons our rotors tend to warp as they do. Ceramics are ok for basic driving, but for really hard, long stops, or when the system is hot, I really think the composite pads do better. Composites also work better at very high speed. The Hawk HPS I use do dust a little, but it easily cleans off, and I have never heard these pads make a squeal of any sort. However, I have had ceramics get squeaky at times.

Point: there is no pad that's quiet, clean, and lasts forever - while at the same time gives the best bite and high heat performance. You need to decide what the priority is, and then deal with the downsides. I've chosen to clean my rims more and have a little less bite when cold, in exchange for really good performance when warm/hot.

Very well said, AA.

We all bring our own biases to the forum, and once I hit 35 I lost my bent for heavy modding and only try to optimize the original equipment.

Right now I am running EBC RedStuff pads, which they say are low dust.

Well, they are low dust compared to most metallic pads but they make prodigious dust compared to the Carquest Blue ceramic pads.

Albertj

Ok, so my EBC brake rotors have gotten worse. The judder is more pronounced, at times shaking the car heavily. I've had the rotors exactly one year, about 25,000 miles. This is 10k less miles than I would see with the cheaper Chinese rotors, so I'm not too happy about paying $100 more for "quality" steel with slots. EBC's warranty is 6 mo/5000 miles, so I'm SOL.

I don't really know for sure if the EBC rotors were of poor quality, or if my problem with loose calipers contributed. I liked how the slotted rotors performed; I also liked the look and sound they made when stopping. If they hadn't warped, I'd be pretty happy.

New plan: 1) Remove spacer sleeves from caliper brackets. I have ordered and received the pair of drilled and tapped brackets, am in the process of sanding and painting them now.

2) Install new rotors. The rotor of choice will be Royalty slotted & cross-drilled:



I have tried solid, drilled and slotted rotors, and would prefer slotted only, but the Royalty rotors are priced right at $146.95, and they offer something I find quite attractive - a lifetime warranty against cracking and warping. Called and talked to Royalty about this. They say as long as the rotors weren't used for track racing, they will replace for the life of the product. I'm almost convinced that no rotor shy of $500 per wheel is going to stay straight on this car (replaced 5 or 6 sets, can't remember), so this is the path I'm taking now.

3) Hawk HP Plus pads. I want to try this composite pad, as it's right between HP S and an all-out race compound. The HP Plus is supposed to have more friction and should keep a more consistent layer of compound around the rotor face. Uneven distribution of pad compound is one of the contributing factors in warping, so hopefully this will help. Disadvantage is cold braking will not be as good, but the description says they are acceptable for street use. I'm guessing just barely. If needed, I have the HP S pads as back up.

Will update as things move forward.

I'm sorry you're having this trouble Aaron but I'm glad it happened before I ordered EBC

Did you have both EBC rotors and pads before you used the Hawk pads? I'm curious how this new combo will compare in braking power.

Will definitely hold off on brake upgrades until I see how you like your new set up.

good to know. so is that $147 per rotor or an axle set?
my next rotors will be the brembo solids on tirerack. ($70ea)
i've only had my rotors on for a few weeks now and i've put them through some serious stops trying to find out where the pads start to fade. no warping yet from my chinese ones, but i dont expect that to last.

I installed the EBC rotors and HP S pads at the same time. Never used EBC pads. The EBC rotors were attractive to me because of the company history and the fact their steel was cast in Cleveland. British design + US manufactured. I figured why not?

The HP S pads are sweet, and holding up well, but I'm curious about the HP Plus. When I bought the HP S, I thought they were the closest street pad before race compound. The HP Plus are technically a race pad that can be used on the street. I'm curious to see the difference in performance between the two.

I don't really think rotors make that much difference other than some warp faster than others, and some crack. But the warranty makes all the difference, as I'm one who could actually make use of it. The Royalty Rotor Co and I could get to know each other very well over the next few years.

Matthew, the pair was $147. They are not sold each because they use directional venting. Not a bad price at all, especially if I can get a free set or three on warranty.

so are you getting the HP plus pads now? how much life is left on the HP S pads? my ceramics squeak from time to time and i'd like to try something different, but very strapped for cash with summer semester in 2 weeks. i'd buy your old HP S pads if they have some life left in them.

BTW Oldsman says he hasn't found out if the PAU brakes will work in the rear yet.

Thanks for all this info AA, I have to replace warped rotors again very soon. This tale kinda reaffirms to me that it's just not worth dealing with different rotors when they are just going to warp again too soon anyway. My good Raybestos rotors ($70 ea) are not slotted or drilled or anything, and lasted 90K, two sets of pads before they started to shudder. I'm just going to get the same stock brakes again. My car panic stops like friggin crazy. I'm sure if I were SCCA racing I would want better heat dissapation, but for my driving style with the occasional track nights, I have no complaints whatsoever about the stock brakes with good components.

As for the question about PAU rear brakes - I did rear brakes on a '98 PA (not U) and they are identical to the Riv's brakes. Did the U get a brake upgrade? I didn't think so... and given the way my Riv stops I don't see a need!!

I agree, Derek, with your thoughts on not paying extra for slots, dimples, and holes - when the discs are just gonna warp anyway. In my case, my OEM rotors were starting to warp before 50k miles, so I feel replacing with stock parts that cost about the same as aftermarkets might not get me that far ahead. I don't know for sure.

I have a theory that really heavy cars like ours just wear out rotors no matter what, because we just use our brakes so much harder. My friend has a much lighter VW that still has the originals at 85k miles. I can either attribute that to the much lower weight, or "German Engineering". I'm thinking weight has more to do with it.

And this is how some of these rotor manufacturers can get away with slotting and drilling. Most of their customers are driving lighter sports cars. For them, they are probably just fine with the average quality rotor. Also, not everyone puts that many miles on a set of rotors like some of us. They may sell the car before any problems arise.

What I like about the most recent purchase is something I've not seen before: lifetime warranty against warping and cracking, and the price is reasonable, plus if there is any benefit to the fancy slots and holes, I can enjoy that, too. I do believe slots are a valuable improvement. Not so sure about the holes... but if they help cool the disc, it can only help with our weight problem.

What I'd really like are a set of StopTech Aero Rotors, but I don't want to spend $700 to find out they warp the same as the rest.

AA wrote:

What I like about the most recent purchase is something I've not seen before: lifetime warranty against warping and cracking, and the price is reasonable,

Buuut - what if the Chinese rotors have that warranty, not because Chinese materials science and engineering is vastly better than everyone else's, but because their slave labor can make those rotors for 10 cents? I'm exaggerating, but you get the point - maybe they can replace the rotors every 5000 miles X the number of changes it takes for you to become frustrated changing rotors so often and go to a better brand.

It could be totally legit, but you know the saying - "If it sounds too good to be true . . ." I think they're going to be like the cheap Chinese tools with a lifetime warranty Wal-Mart carries. They don't have that warranty because they won't break, it's because the Chinese companies can replace them extremely cheaply.

I do not think the Chinese rotors ($35 ea from AutoZone) had that warranty. If they did, I might have gotten an exchange when my first pair failed. But I get your point.

If the Royalty rotors (based in CA, their rotors using G3000 or better iron) do fail prematurely, I'll use their replacement one time, but probably move on to something else after that. I'm hoping these will turn out to be decent. I just want to find a single pair of rotors that last me more than 60k miles. In the mean time, the lifetime warranty helps out a lot on the wallet.

If slots and holes didn't work, I don't think motorcycle rotors would be covered with them.

I can agree with Jacks comments about over-warrantying stuff, but at the same time, working in auto parts, I feel like I see more and more good name brands like Raybestos and Wagner being manufactured in China, Mexico, some oddball nations, as well as in the US. The quality still seems to be there as far as I can tell.

My raybestos drilled/slotted work fine BTW but then again my stockers worked just fine for me too. I am really pretty nice on my brakes 99% of the time.

AA wrote:

I do not think the Chinese rotors ($35 ea from AutoZone) had that warranty. If they did, I might have gotten an exchange when my first pair failed. But I get your point.

Oops, my bad

Well the odds are better with an American brand if for no other reason than they're easier to launch a class action lawsuit against if they screw up too bad.

I think you're dead on with the idea that no rotors will last on a car this heavy, at least no 12". AFAIK all the bigger cars coming out use 13" rotors. Maybe you need rims and the 13" brake kit, or a newer car with the miles you have.

deekster_caddy wrote:

As for the question about PAU rear brakes - I did rear brakes on a '98 PA (not U) and they are identical to the Riv's brakes. Did the U get a brake upgrade? I didn't think so... and given the way my Riv stops I don't see a need!!

Oldsman says they used an 11.7" rotor in 03-05.

I don't think our rears are bigger than 11". They're not vented for sure. The PAU's aren't vented either, but might be able to use the GP GXP vented disk.

I might try to get a PAU caliper from a yard and a GP rotor from summit. I can at least return the rotor.

On my too-do list.

edit - Oldsman noticed the 05-08 G8 GXP rotors are 12" vs the PAU's 11.7 inch rotors, so I guess that won't work.

How big are the Riv's rear rotors (by year)?

New drilled and tapped caliper brackets, new Royalty drilled & slotted rotors, and new Hawk HP Plus pads installed.

Pros:

• New caliper brackets now use original Buick mounting bolts and no sleeves, so clicking noise moving from forward to reverse is gone. I like the confidence of having the brake capers not moving with the wheels. Thanks to 99prixgt for advice on drilling, and thanks to Mr.Riviera for a good parts source.

• Royalty rotors are straight, so judder is gone. Also have the comfort of a lifetime warranty against warping and cracking. I followed the install instructions carefully, with photo documentation in case they challenge my warranty claim (if I should need to use it).

• HP Plus pads bite really well. They are actually racing pads that can be used on the street - one step above the HPS, and about $40 more per pair. There is so much friction, they will easily move the system into active ABS, something I couldn't as easily do with the HPS pads. Definitely getting something with this upgrade.

Cons:

• I miss the smoothness and deceleration sound from the EBC slotted/dimpled rotors. I may keep them around to see about having them turned. In their prime, the EBCs were about the most desirable rotor I could really hope for. The new Royalty rotors, although they have a nice warranty, I don't feel they're of the same quality level. They make kind of a growling sound during hard decel that's not as appealing as the EBCs'. Maybe this is partly because of the new pads, not sure. I think the drilled holes contribute more than anything.

• The Hawk HP Plus pads make a sound I haven't heard in over a year: brake squeal. They only do this when rolling very slow, and I've read it's common for this compound to be noisy. It's not super annoying, but I really liked how quiet the HPS pads were. At normal & high speeds, the HP Plus are very quiet, just like the HPS.

• Brake dust is up with the HP Plus pads. After less than 200 miles of reasonably average driving, I'm already noticing buildup on the calipers and wheels. I assume this means either the rotors or pads will probably show some wear over time. As long as the rotors don't warp, I don't care if that's the case.

I will put up some pics and vids soon...

Rick, I will see about drilling and tapping my brackets soon. I can also paint them your color of choice if you like.

Matthew, I need to test these HP Plus pads a little longer to decide if I want to keep them. The HPS pads still have a lot of life left in them, having very even wear. Just not yet sure if it's worth the extra noise and dust.

AA wrote:

Matthew, I need to test these HP Plus pads a little longer to decide if I want to keep them. The HPS pads still have a lot of life left in them, having very even wear. Just not yet sure if it's worth the extra noise and dust.

not a problem, just let me know when/if you are ready to get them off your hands. i have brand new ceramic pads now, so it's not like i need them. i just want a set of pads that doesnt fade after the first 100-0 hard stop, but i cant afford a new set with all that's going on right now.

Another update, probably last one.

it's not too much brake dust from the EBCs if you clean off the wheels once a week. They stop OK when cold, but when warm they stop like you landed on the deck of an aircraft carrier and hooked the cable, no kidding.

Albertj