Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod

it feels great. i am literally having to relearn how to brake. if i jump on the peddle too hard i have to worry about the car behind me not stopping in time. i feel like i can stop on a dime at low speeds, and high speed braking feels very secure and i havent even tested them to the full potential b/c i dont have abs working.
here are my old rotors and pads full of heat stress cracks compared to the new beasts.




i cant say i love the suspension as much, but i havent really pushed it yet. it does change direction with much less body roll, but it still doesnt handle like a sports car (and probably never will)
i LOVE the new lowered stance. much more aggressive, and the brakes barely clear the rims.

here is a pic of the car all finished. see sig for a comparison of wheel gap.



his asking price seems a little high, but you wouldnt have any down time this way.
http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=4833203&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

Nice find. Are we sure the GPs use the same size caliper bolts as Buicks? I've sent a message to the seller.

In mid Oct last fall, I had the passenger SS brake line (ZZP) burst and fail rather abruptly. You can read about it on page 12 of this thread. I had about 15k miles on the lines when failure occurred. ZZP sent out a pair of replacements, slightly longer, with a newer strain relief design on each end.

Since that time, I decided to drive the car with the old driver side line remaining on the car. I wanted to see if it would fail. This would tell me whether these lines were a defective design, or if it was just a fluke.

Well last week the driver side line failed. It failed the same way, and in the exact same spot. Here is a photo of the two lines that failed, and the new line:



On the left is the passenger side line that failed last Oct. On the right is the driver side line that failed last week. In the middle is one of the new lines ZZP sent me for replacement. You can see how they changed the design of the end. Look closely at the left and right lines - see the point of failure is consistent, only a couple mm difference between the two.

Here is another shot of the three lines. Note the extra length of the new replacement:

Sounds somewhat dangerous - does braking power go to zero when the lines burst?

you can still use the e-brake, but you pretty much have 0 pressure on the pistons if it leaks a lot of the fluid out.

the lines i received are like the ones you got for replacement. i guess zzp stopped carrying the defective ones. (thank god)

Quote :

Sounds somewhat dangerous - does braking power go to zero when the lines burst?

No, braking was fine. But I still consider it to be a dangerous problem. It's the constant leaking that poses the issue.

I would say on a danger scale of 1-10 (ten being life threatening) this would be around a 6 or 7. The lines start to leak gradually, so the red brake light and dinger will let you know when fluid gets about a pint low. Pedal feel is like normal unless you are stopped in gear. You will feel the pedal slowly sink to the floor, like with a bad master cyl. The first line failed quickly, over a couple days. The second one I caught before it got bad, but I think it was leaking for a while, because my first clue was the brake warning light. The system worked fine.

I say 6-7 on the danger scale because these are brakes, and should always be 100% for safely reasons. You can get by for a day or two, but this is a problem that has to be fixed, and it's obviously a DIY job because of the aftermarket set-up. To brake the car, you can do one of two things: 1) use the P-brake to stop the car, or 2) carry a couple pints of brake fluid and add as necessary. I prefer option one, because using the fronts means the leak could get worse, and brake fluid is nasty stuff to have shooting out of your car. But you must put up with constant dinging sound with P-brake engaged, so passengers will be curious - but you shouldn't be hauling passengers if brakes are bad.

Since Oct, the new ZZP line appears to be working fine. I think the added 2" length makes a big difference. It doesn't kink like the old ones did.

Aaron, did you ever run the F body brakes with standard rubber lines? Has anyone else? I want to know how much of a difference in brake feel it would make for me. I have the F body calipers but with the factory hoses still.

Everyone selling the hoses say that they impove pedal feel by themselves but is it really worth it? I'm satisfied with it now but wouldn't mind spending a few to improve it.

The reason I ran SS lines is because neither the OEM F-body nor G-body rubber will work. I figure if you're going to spend extra on aftermarket, might as well go SS braided.

It's more than the vendors saying they make a difference. Talk to anyone who's made the switch and they will say it made a difference. Not a snake oil product, imo. If you watch a rubber brake hose on a motorcycle, you can actually see it expand. Being that our fronts are so long, I think it would make even more of a difference.

And it's not the material, it's getting the right fit. I think these 20"ers will work fine. If anything, SS braided should be more durable than rubber.

AA, did ZZP say the original lines you had problems with were made for the Riv, or did they say "all 3800 cars" or "all G-bodys" or something...? Just curious...

The originals were available in two sizes: one for W-Body, and an extra long 18" version for Bonneville (G-body). The new size for Bonneville is 20.5", so they must have had the same issue as we've seen here.

When I called, they gave me no hassle, "New lines are on the way". I never even returned the originals, and they never asked me about it.

I've heard of a couple guys having problems with the ZZP lines on W-bodies too. One guy on a local forum just had a set of his fail not too long ago. Perhaps they had similar issues on the W-body. Either way , Hopefully the extended length fixed the issue.

I have been wondering..that...is there any even bigger kit's what could fit the riv.
i'm not familiar whit the body styles and the diferences.
but here whe talk about F-body brake mod.
on net i found one kit what fits F-body...its whit 6 pistons and 13'' rootors.


http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/Pages/03/index.asp

could i be possible to fit it on riv sameway as whi the other f body brakes? or need a big modification? guess the suport holders need to be bigger.


and for G-body found one more kit whit 13'' rootors and corvette calibers
Link

the problem with upgrading past the fbody kit is fitment behind the stock wheels. i see you have what look to be 18's on your riv so you could probably fit some 13" rotors and calipers in there, but the fbody caliper fins barely clear a 16" rim.
anything that the fbody cars use as an upgrade could potentially be used for the riv. though after upgrading to these brakes i cant imagine stopping any harder, especially coupled with some ebc pads and good rotors.
i think you should try the fbody mod before spend all the extra $$ on some 6 piston calipers and 1" larger rotors.

I was wondering if the chemistry/materials of the EBC rotor/pads are meant specifically for each other, and how much of a difference it would make to use them together vs. mixing parts.

Aaron,
You wrote that you have ordered and received a pair of drilled and tapped caliper brackets.
Where did you order them from and how much??

Jack the R,
I have some experience with using rotors and pads from different manufacturers with bad results on motorcycles, so I stick to the same manufacturer for both when buying aftermarket performance brakes.
I don't have any other experience with performance brakes for auto's though, other than the current EBC's.

Rickw - how many miles do you have on your ebc brakes? Any problems?

Jack the R wrote:

Rickw - how many miles do you have on your ebc brakes? Any problems?

I have approx. 12,000 miles without problems yet.
I do want to drill and tap my brackets though, to avoid the problem Aaron had with his.

Woah, I totally didn't notice the "ordered drilled and tapped brackets" part. Why would one do this instead of having the job done locally? Less down time?

Matthew: HP Plus pads are inbound, as are the new rotors. I want to try the new system out for a bit, then I may sell you my HP S pads. They are wearing pretty evenly, should still have a lot of life in them.

Jack: most people I talk to mix pad and rotor brands. Everyone who races autocross or road course uses Hawk pads. I don't think it matters, as no rotor company stipulates you must use their pad, and Hawk doesn't even make rotors. I think most pad manufacturers don't make rotors. EBC and StopTech are the only ones I can think of who sell both.

The reason for ordering the brackets is twofold: I drive my car daily, so there is no downtime, ever. Every installation I do must happen within a few hours, a day max. Also, I will have my OEM bracket drilled and tapped, then sell to another Riv owner in need.

Rick: I ordered the brackets from Parker Tauzier of TDC Racing. He can be contacted at: TopDeadCenterRacing@cox.net

You may order through him ($80/pr), but I'll give you a better price on my old brackets if you can wait till I have them drilled & tapped.

I wonder if Parker would have brackets to mount the f body brakes we've already got over a 13" rotor? It would be good to know there's a cheap upgrade path.

Aaron,
PM sent regarding purchasing your brackets.
Rick

Just a note to anyone interested, the machine specs for converting F-Body caliper brackets to accept our native G-Body (and W-Body) caliper bolts are:

Tap size: M14x2

Dia: 14.000 mm

TPI: ~13

Pitch: 2.000

Drill size: 12 mm

These are the hole & thread specs a machine shop would need to drill & tap the F-Body brackets for direct bolt-on to Riviera (eliminates need for spacer bushings).

Jack the R wrote:

I was wondering if the chemistry/materials of the EBC rotor/pads are meant specifically for each other, and how much of a difference it would make to use them together vs. mixing parts.

Not necessarily - however if you look at the EBC web site you'll see their claims about brake rotor metallurgy and brake pad compounding. See http://www.ebcbrakes.com/corporate.shtml - there is a video and a link to a page talking about their cast grey iron/copper alloy rotors; the company name is European Friction Industries. For those of you who have worked on European cars in the somewhat distant past, EFI is the successor company to some British brake makers in Bristol, UK.

Albertj

I've recently purchased the required thread tap for converting F-Body brackets to accepting G-body caliper bolts. PM me if you are interested in having your brackets converted for a reasonable price.

Would it be cost effective to ship the calipers to you?