Write-Up: Subframe/Cradle Mount Insulators & Bushings

AA wrote:

I visited my GM parts counter today. They recommend the following:

qty (3) spacer #25654083 (is this qty right? Will I even need to replace these?)

qty (2) insulator # 2575173
qty (2) insulator #25757174

qty (2) insulator # 25674564
qty (2) insulator # 25674565

qty (2) insulator # 25643387

qty (2) retainer #25609143 (2 packs of 5)

qty (6) nut #11609712
qty (1) retainer #25636517 (pack of 10)

Here are prices from GMpartsdirect (spacers not included):



Thanks in advance for help. PS - Ed Morad does not have these parts for sale; they say the used ones they see aren't worth reusing.

I only see 5 different part numbers for the insulators. I know you have to use the correct insulator for each location, but what is the part number for the 6th? Is there a noticeable difference between the insulators or do you need to know which part number goes to each location?

I just combined the FAQ thread with this write-up. Check page 4, immediately after the above quoted post - it should answer your question about part numbers. Yes, I made sure to use the correct bushings for front, middle, and rear. They are slightly different for some reason.

AA wrote:

Okay, did some research on this and found the cradle mounting hardware varies slightly year to year:



Using GMparts direct to replace all the cradle hardware on my '98 would be $285.99. I've decided to try reusing the spacers, nuts and bolts, so total will be $147.68. I still feel this is a lot for 12 pieces of rubber and some metal clips, but I don't see any other option right now.

If needed, McMaster-Carr sells compatible bolts and nuts for lower prices. I ordered a pack of 5 bolts and 10 nuts for about $20:

Bolts: http://www.mcmaster.com/#91310A796

Nuts: http://www.mcmaster.com/#92497A550

I updated your information and got this:
1998:
2 - 11609712 RETAINER (NUT)
6 - 11588419 BOLT, Spec: FRM(SILVER)(M14X2X105,10.9,38THD)(REDUCED BODY)(08.900)
6 - 25654083 SPACER
6 - 25636517 RETAINER
6- 25609143 RETAINER
2 - 25757174 INSULATOR
2 - 25674565INSULATOR
2- 25757174 INSULATOR
2 - 25674564 INSULATOR
2 - 25757173 INSULATOR
2 - 25643387 INSULATOR

That is if I wanted to replace everything. Were you able to reuse the spacers or since they were rusted to the frame did you have to get new ones? I will probably reuse most of the bolts if they are in good shape. I plan on replacing the rusted ones. The picture does a good job showing which insulator goes where. I assume the other side is just a mirror copy of the one shown above?

I was able to reuse 4 of the 6 spacers. I think it was the middle ones that broke during removal. I made my own replacements by cutting sections of iron pipe.

I may have some extra bolts if you need. I bought a pack from McMaster Carr. Will need to check.

Yes, each side of the cradle is a symmetrical.

AA wrote:

I was able to reuse 4 of the 6 spacers. I think it was the middle ones that broke during removal. I made my own replacements by cutting sections of iron pipe.

I may have some extra bolts if you need. I bought a pack from McMaster Carr. Will need to check.

Yes, each side of the cradle is a symmetrical.

Thats good about the spacers. They are expensive! Do you know what size the spacers were? Would the steel spacers at McMaster Carr work? Although I just took a closer look at the spacers on McMaster Carr and figuring that I need a spacer for around a half inch bolt, it will cost around the same as GM. I'm guessing I will need at least two spacers for the middle bolts. That is where the most rust is. Let me know about the bolts. No rush, I won't be able to get to the project for a while.

I can't recall the diameter of the spacers, but they are attached to the retainer cups, like a "T". If I have any of them left, I'll measure. Checking on the bolts later...

AA wrote:

I can't recall the diameter of the spacers, but they are attached to the retainer cups, like a "T". If I have any of them left, I'll measure. Checking on the bolts later...

Don't worry about the bolts, the shipping price doesn't change if I order them with the other parts.

Hey guys, I'm back and I've installed my new struts and strut mounts. I also went ahead and got new tires! To my surprise, the front end STILL POPS around low speed hard turns. Only on the left side and when coming out of the turn. Sometimes when breaking hard. I can't believe it. I've poured a lot of time and money replacing everything on the front end (Struts, strut mount bearings, ball bearing, outer tie rod end, A arm bushings, and sway bar links). It HAS to be the inner tie rod am I right??? If not I need to look at the rack and pinion. This has been most frustrating.

Look closely at your inner sway bar bushings too.

Quote :

It HAS to be the inner tie rod am I right??? If not I need to look at the rack and pinion. This has been most frustrating.

Nope. It's almost certainly the cradle mount bushings. Sorry, tried to tell you in the first post!

I inspected the cradle mounts and they all seemed intact...

Well, you can rule out the inner tie rod pretty easily by checking for slop in the front wheels. With one side lifted, apply force 3-to-9 o'clock. If the wheel feels loose, or makes noise, there's a problem. You can also watch the steering linkage from under the car with the wheels on ramps or a lift. Even with the inner end inside the boot, you can compare the movement from wheel to wheel. The wheels should follow the movement from the rack.

Aaron et all,

1) I checked the inner tie rods by shaking the wheel back and forth 3 to 9. All though I noticed a tiny bit of play, it could just be the whole assembly moving around. I did not hear any popping but again, this only happens under very high forces (going around sharp turns). It will creak and pop around tight turns, breaking very hard, or rolling out of the drive way in the morning. Can I definitely rule out the inner tie rod at this point?

2) Attached are pictures I snapped of my engine, trans, and cradle mounts. Let me know what you think. To me, the ones in bad shape are my rear trans mount and my 2 center cradle mounts. I read through the other threads on these topics:

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t8662p120-write-up-cradle-mount-insulators-bushings?highlight=cradle+mount

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t882p120-faq-engine-transmission-motor-mounts#125958

Both were rather confusing to a newbie like myself so I'd like to ask. Do I need support the engine with a lift to do the trans mounts? Do I need to support the engine with a lift to do the cradle mounts?

3) I need to have transmission work done (trouble down shifting, dark fluid, slips occasionally, etc.). Should I save this trans mount/cradle mount job for the shop when they're doing the transmission? I'm not sure if they touch cradle mounts when rebuilding one but they must certainly get involved with the trans mounts.

Please let me know what you think about these 3 points. Thanks so much.

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You have a wack trans mount and a couple obviously wack cradle mounts. Time to replace, you don't want that 240 HP bopping about.

Albertj

Can anyone answer my questions from the above post?

Quote :

Do I need support the engine with a lift to do the trans mounts? Do I need to support the engine with a lift to do the cradle mounts?

"No" for the front trans mount, and not 100% necessary for the rear trans mount, but makes it easier. "Yes", you want to suspend the engine somehow for the insulators. These answers have been posted before - more specific info at these links:

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t882p150-faq-engine-transmission-motor-mounts

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t8662p45-write-up-cradle-mount-insulators-bushings

Quote :

Should I save this trans mount/cradle mount job for the shop when they're doing the transmission?

Absolutely, "yes". When the transaxle is removed, they must drop the cradle for access, so the mounts are easily accessible. Also it would be a great time to do the cradle insulators, too, if your shop is willing to do that kind of work. If you go this route, ask them if they would be willing to use supplied parts (with agreement of no warranty for those parts), or get a quote from GM parts direct and see if your shop can meet or beat it. Parts pricing and shop cooperation is key. Using GM parts desk prices, you could easily equal the cost of the transmission rebuild just for the cost of all the mounts and insulators.

Thanks for the response Aaron. From your response it sounds like I can change out all of these faulty mounts (trans and cradle) during a transmission rebuild. The guys at the shop are good guys and are willing to work with me so I will ask them how they would do it. This might be a hefty bill. Pairing it with the trans rebuild sounds like the way to go.

If I try to replace the trans mounts myself can I support the engine underneath with a jack or two? Or is that a no no?

If I just do the 2 middle cradle mounts myself, do the outer pairs provide enough support for me to not have to support the engine? Sounds pretty intuitive but there must be some reason why people suspend their engines....

The clicking and knocking around turns is annoying but I'm sure this job can be put off for a few months. Let me know if I am wrong...

How to support the engine with a jack is covered in the first link I posted above.

The reason people don't just swap the middle insulators, using the outers for support - I asked the same question before I did this job - I found out there's little point, because if you're going to go through the trouble of dropping the cradle at all, you want to do them all. Suspending the engine makes it much easier to do all 6, whereas using the outers for support would make it more difficult to do the middle two.

I am merging this thread with the cradle mount insulator write-up...

Aaron,
I took a look at my cradle mounts, and they don't look terrible, but I am missing one of the the big washers on the very bottom on one bolt. It just completely rotted away, the others are still there. I plan to do the Addco sway bars, front and rear, so, I might as well replace everything. I had one of my mechanic/club member friends get me some prices on this stuff, and we have come to the conclusion that GM Parts direct is the cheapest way, even with the shipping. I have a 98 like yours. Should I just order everything you listed here for the 98?

1998:
01 - N/A
02 - 11609712 RETAINER (NUT), 6 Required (1995-1999)
03 - 25654083 SPACER, 6 Required (1995-1999)
04 - 25757174 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1997-1999, same as #08)
05 - 25674565 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1997-1999)
06 - 25609143 RETAINER, 6 Required (1995-1999)
07 - 11588419 BOLT, 6 Required (1995-1998) Spec: FRM(SILVER)(M14X2X105,10.9,38THD)(REDUCED BODY)(08.900)
08 - 25757174 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1997-1999, same as #04)
09 - 25674564 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1995-1999)
10 - 25757173 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1996-1999)
11 - 25643387 INSULATOR, 2 Required (1995-1999)
12 - 25636517 RETAINER, 6 Required (1995-1999)

Did you find that you could have done without ordering some of these parts?

Larry, let me check my extra parts. I remember I had some leftover parts, since we must order bags of 10 for some pieces. Yes, GM Parts direct is the way to go for the best price. No kidding, when I asked the dealer parts guy to quote all of these parts, he gave me the "it's not worth it" kind of expression while sliding the estimate across the counter. It was almost $500 as I remember for all the pieces.

AA wrote:

Larry, let me check my extra parts. I remember I had some leftover parts, since we must order bags of 10 for some pieces. Yes, GM Parts direct is the way to go for the best price. No kidding, when I asked the dealer parts guy to quote all of these parts, he gave me the "it's not worth it" kind of expression while sliding the estimate across the counter. It was almost $500 as I remember for all the pieces.

Yes, GM parts direct was 296.08 with the shipping and handling. I have a few friends that told me they had a good discount at the GM parts counter. Even with their discount, it was between 3 and 400.00. I went ahead and ordered everything this morning. I have access to a lift as the Director of our GS club works in an Auto shop. I'm going to do the sway bars and cradle mounts at the same time. Hopefully, I don't get any surprises with the Addco sway bars. Reading through the sway bar write ups isn't exactly inspiring when it comes to Addco's quality control (bars bent wrong and uninstallable) Thank You for the offer Aaron.

Good luck on your install, Larry. Doing this repair + the F/R mounts was one of the things that make me want to drive this car forever. It really makes the car feel new again. Doing the sway bar mod F/R was one of the best things I've done to the suspension for this car. Because of the increased forces exerted on the stiffer bars, you'll want to use energy suspension insulators, at least on the fronts. Also, the front links should be upgraded for the extra load (I've popped an OEM link with these bars). Write-up:

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t7376p30-write-up-stabillizer-anti-sway-bar-link-upgrade

i noticed when jacking up the car the other day to do the oil that the caps for a few of my subframe bushings are missing which explains why i hear a clunk whenever i make a harder turn


is there a write up on how to replace them or am i going to have to go to a shop to do it i have access to a l;ift and air tools more or less i am just wondering if it is as simple as unscrew them pull em out and screw new ones in


any help is appreciated

They are called Cradle Mount bushings. Get the parts from GM parts direct, it's the cheapest way. About 300.00 for everything including the shipping. Here's the write up:

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t8662-write-up-cradle-mount-insulators-bushings