Exhaust tips?

VJD2 wrote:

Jack the R wrote:

VJD2 wrote:

Talk about a piping nightmare under there to get the tips in that position!

You'd put a single glasspack type muffler in front of the "T", take out everything from the "T" on back and run a single pipe straight out the back. There was a Riv owner on RegalGS.org who did it.

Hmmm, didn't think of that but then again I haven't really looked at how our exhaust are setup yet. I'm still a fan of the dual unless this was executed really well.

We don't have a true dual exhaust. From the headers the exhaust flows into one big pipe down the center of the car. At the rear wheels there's a "T" that splits the exhaust off to the fake dual tip arrangement. There's been some debate as to whether the backpressure this "T" produces is beneficial or not. If you wanted the freeest flowing exhaust, you'd take out the T and run a new exhaust out under the center of the bumper.

The center quad setup isn't as ridiculous for our cars as it may first seem. We've got the heritage from the C5/6, which you could build on by putting Corvette calipers in front, and our exhaust comes routed for a center exit. The dual exhaust look is actually "rice" - it's done purely for looks, not performance. I think I prefer it as well, but I wouldn't knock a well done center exit exhaust on a Riv. One of the forum members pchopped a version with two fat tips that looked like it would be sweet. I don't think he ever did anything with it, but it was a neat idea.

There are some functional reasons, in addition to aesthetic ones, for splitting the exhaust into T near the rear. Weight distribution is one. Dual mufflers, tips, piping, mounting hardware, and the T itself puts quite a bit of weight right near the rear of the car. This helps counter the front heavy nature of our cars. It's a small thing, but added up with other small things, like the battery, ELC pump, and aluminum hood, it does make a difference.

Another thing, a dual exhaust is quieter than a single one, because you can use two silencers, 3 including the resonator, instead of one muffler with a single exhaust. For any given dual exhaust, it will flow better than an equally quiet single exhaust, even with the T split.

AA wrote:

There are some functional reasons, in addition to aesthetic ones, for splitting the exhaust into T near the rear. Weight distribution is one. Dual mufflers, tips, piping, mounting hardware, and the T itself puts quite a bit of weight right near the rear of the car. This helps counter the front heavy nature of our cars. It's a small thing, but added up with other small things, like the battery, ELC pump, and aluminum hood, it does make a difference.

I wonder could the average driver notice these differences.
Most likely not, being driven on the street. Maybe in the lab or an extremely experienced road course driver.
But an extremely experienced road coarse driver would not pick the Riv as a car to drive.
So, for regular street or straight line strip driving a single exhaust system will be great. If that's what they want.
But I don't believe it will be a noticeable difference in handling character differences.

Part of me can see the "Ultimate pursuit of perfection" argument, but the greater part wants to call - well, I'll be restrained and say I stick by my earlier opinion that the dual tip layout is purely for appearance. If the engineers were that concerned about the weight balance they could have put the battery next to the spare and gotten more weight on the rear with less weight overall. Probably not the best arrangement for traction in a high power (for the time) FWD car though. Could get better handling results still by using the FE2 or FE3 suspension packages, with less engineering effort. Or by using the Caddy STB we all love so much.

Let's face it, they just didn't care that much about the Riv's handling.

As for sound, the 2000 Mercedes CLK 430 w/ 275 hp 295 tq V8 had a single exhaust set up. It's a Mercedes, it couldn't have been terribly loud inside. Maybe Mercedes used expensive sound deadening material and the 2nd muffler is a cheaper solution? I dunno, but I'm not buying this argument as an explanation for our setup. It's for looks.

Quote :

Let's face it, they just didn't care that much about the Riv's handling.

Strongly disagree. I think they cared. I think they had ideas, some of which were employed over the 8th gen Riv's short lifespan. I don't think they ever got there. For a '90s car of its size and weight, I don't consider it a horrible handling car.

The rear-shifted weight does make a difference when you add it all up, and although the average driver may not notice, the engineers did this stuff for a purpose. I am referring to the intent, not the result, but INTENSE and ZZP have noted the G-Body cars are harder to launch off the line than W-Bodies, due to the G-Bodies having less weight over the front wheels. That weight went somewhere - it went to the rear of the car.

I think the 8th gen Riviera was designed with good handling in mind. It certainly was not perfected, but they changed several aspects of steering and suspension geometry over the 5 year production period, all seem to improve handling ability. I don't think they ever got there, but it appears they tried. Why else would you firm up the feel of the steering wheel? There's no one-finger steering in this '98. The new Acura I drove the other day had looser steering.

The FE2/FE3 suspension thing has a lot to do with the perceived feel of the ride, which they wanted to keep soft for obvious reasons. It's possible to have a soft suspension that still has good road-holding manners. In a hard corner, the Riviera sticks decently. I think that's what they were trying to do - a comfortable car, nimble for its size, and for its time. I mean, an aluminum hood? Come on. That's pretty hard-core for not caring about weight balance. It's also not cheap, and no one would know it's there. A friend of mine mentioned his Honda S2000 (50/50 wt. dist) has an aluminum hood; he couldn't believe it when I told him the Riviera had one. And the battery, no it's not in the trunk, but it's 2/3 way there - that's a strong indicator that they might have put it in the trunk if there wasn't something stopping them. Maybe they had to compromise, or maybe they decided a central location was better for some other reason.

Yes, I think Mercedes spent more on the best performing solution for that exhaust. Isn't the CLK a RWD set-up? They were probably thinking they didn't need any more weight back there. And you're right, MB uses massive amounts of sound deadening in their cars, probably more than Buick. They are some very heavy (and quiet) cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM73fPXgbks

Hmmmm, it doesn't look to bad at all really. Would like to see some pics from different angles.

I didn't say GM didn't care about the Riv's handling at all, I said they didn't care about it enough to add a 2nd muffler and pipe as a handling improvement. We know what the upper bound on their concern is - a brace that cost us $18 retail and cost them probably two or three bucks. The extra exhaust pipe and muffler costs more than the STB, and there's no way the 2nd muffler improves handling as much as the STB does.

If the Riv had come with a single tip exhaust, what would you do yourself to improve handling? 2nd muffler? C'mon. The only reason you'd put that second muffler on is for looks.

I don't think something like an exhaust system can ever be decided over a single concern. There are too many considerations, and likely multiple reasons they used the split exhaust. No, it's not entirely about handling, but it's part of it. When they sat down to decide, they probably considered all kinds of scenarios, and the split dual exhaust made the most sense. It's quiet, and it shifts weight to the back, and it looks more aggressive, true. But it's not ALL just about looks, so I can't call it R.I.C.E.

For those of you who wanted to know. I got a P/N for my exhaust tips.
They are listed as such.....

P/N 12498009 EXTENSION 2004 - PONTIAC - GRAND PRIX

Gmpartsdirect shows them for around $105. Apparently, I was a lil off on the price. I got them for free, as our dealer was throwing away old stock
I recall our parts guy telling me $350, which would be double. Lil misunderstanding I spose. List price for the pair is $160, and I can still get them for $135. GMpartsdirect would be the way to go.

Jack the R wrote:

I didn't say GM didn't care about the Riv's handling at all, I said they didn't care about it enough to add a 2nd muffler and pipe as a handling improvement. We know what the upper bound on their concern is - a brace that cost us $18 retail and cost them probably two or three bucks. The extra exhaust pipe and muffler costs more than the STB, and there's no way the 2nd muffler improves handling as much as the STB does.

If the Riv had come with a single tip exhaust, what would you do yourself to improve handling? 2nd muffler? C'mon. The only reason you'd put that second muffler on is for looks.

AA wrote:

I don't think something like an exhaust system can ever be decided over a single concern. There are too many considerations, and likely multiple reasons they used the split exhaust. No, it's not entirely about handling, but it's part of it. When they sat down to decide, they probably considered all kinds of scenarios, and the split dual exhaust made the most sense. It's quiet, and it shifts weight to the back, and it looks more aggressive, true. But it's not ALL just about looks, so I can't call it R.I.C.E.

Not sure why they did it (duals) in this case BUT I did notice:

- it shifts a little weight to theback, maybe another ~20-30 lbs
- probably more impoertant, it lets you put toghether a nearly silent exhaust that is free-flowing in the relevant range.

IIRC we'd want 250-300 CFM flow thru our exhaust. A free flowing exhaust that capacity would have 2 1/2 in. or larger pipes, at smallest, which would likely drone like a bored professor. But by splitting the exhaust they get the flow of a large tube (two 1 7/8" pipes would freely flow in excess of 300 CFM taken together) with the quieter volume of a small one. The bend introduces restriction but nothing that impinges on the target flow rate, and you can use a quiet but somewhat restrictive muffler and still not impinge on the target flow rate--taken together from the Y aft of the resonator.

Albertj

THREAD RESURRECTION.

I didn't read through the thread, but has anyone ever cut up into the valence thing on the bumper cover and had their tips tucked up there? I think if you did a clean job it could look cool.

What do you guys think?

I refer you to 2 posts above yours.....

Your install definitely looks really clean, but I'm talking about actually cutting out a portion of the grey so there is a cove up to the body color, then having the tips in there. Like, so the bottom of the tip sits flush with the bottom of the valence. I hope that makes some sense haha.

Do you think that would look like trash?

No, I don't, as I was going to do the same thing. However, the spare tire well is in the way, and so is the rear bumper support. That's as high as I could get them. Notice how the mufflers are cocked? That's all the room I had   

Sqrivi did, but he had a full custom front and rear bumper.

Sir Psycho Sexy wrote:

Your install definitely looks really clean, but I'm talking about actually cutting out a portion of the grey so there is a cove up to the body color, then having the tips in there. Like, so the bottom of the tip sits flush with the bottom of the valence. I hope that makes some sense haha.

Do you think that would look like trash?

 
Yeah, you would have to do some re-routing and work around things like the spare tire well, but it is probably do-able.  If done well, it would look pretty nice.  Especially if you could find some chrome or stainless inserts/rings to put into the cutouts so they looked stock/pro and not just like some guy cut out holes with a dremel   
 
I bet you could source some faux exahaust tips "rings" from another model car that has the exhaust coming through a bumper/valence.  A lot of recent cars seem to have that styling feature now.
 
Al

Scott, would you care to post some close up pics of your tips? Are they rolled on the edges? I like the look of the dual-tip setup.

al_roethlisberger wrote:

Sir Psycho Sexy wrote:

Your install definitely looks really clean, but I'm talking about actually cutting out a portion of the grey so there is a cove up to the body color, then having the tips in there. Like, so the bottom of the tip sits flush with the bottom of the valence. I hope that makes some sense haha.

Do you think that would look like trash?

 
Yeah, you would have to do some re-routing and work around things like the spare tire well, but it is probably do-able.  If done well, it would look pretty nice.  Especially if you could find some chrome or stainless inserts/rings to put into the cutouts so they looked stock/pro and not just like some guy cut out holes with a dremel   
 
I bet you could source some faux exahaust tips "rings" from another model car that has the exhaust coming through a bumper/valence.  A lot of recent cars seem to have that styling feature now.
 
Al

That's a very good idea Al. I think it could definitely look great if I take my time and do it right. We will see if I decide to actually go for it or not.

69GSColorado wrote:

Scott, would you care to post some close up pics of your tips? Are they rolled on the edges? I like the look of the dual-tip setup.

The tips are nothing more than the nice(r) Grand Prix tips that you probably see every day. The P/N is listed a few posts above. They are actual stainless...no rolls or anything, just welds.

Psycho, good luck. I'm tellin you, there isn't enough room unless you buy tiny mufflers. The rear pinch-weld (rear bulkhead?) is in the way and won't allow you to go any higher, and there isn't enough room between the spare tire well and the frame to tuck a standard size muffler up there. I've thought about cutting the spare tire well out for more room. Get under your car and look. You'll see what I mean.