Fuel Injector Cleaning

albertj wrote:

robotennis61 wrote:

YUP! judging by the crooks that run garages here in this town,id have to say that customers wouldn't be hard to convince this service is Smart $s spent

IS there a price for injector removal/cleaning/oring refit that you could charge that lets the garages in town all sublet the injector work to you, at a price good for customers, and you/they still make fair profit? (compared to the in-the-car chemical injection?) Is there a bread-and-butter angle like a military or fleet contract you could get as basic income for the business?

Albertj

Absolutely AJ. all those came to mind. I have a product brochure coming ,and ill find out all I need to know. It sounds like a good small business to get into

[quote="Abaddon"]I was thinkin the same thing Albert. I don't know of anybody who has ever come into my shop and asked to have their Injectors removed and cleaned. However, we sell quite a few of the Fuel Injection/Induction services ($100). The system I have is newer than the one in the video I posted. Mine has a dual tank setup. One for the combustion stuff, and one for the intake stuff. Pull the fuel pump fuse or relay, and the car runs off of the cleaner, getting every single Injector clean. robo, you might want to consider something like this system instead of a bench setup.

I looked at this set up too Abaddon. The ASNU system claims that the hardened deposits on the pintle and in the injector body can not be cleaned by this method. That only by removing them and immersing them in a sonic bath will do. Looking at the pics of before/after, this appears to be true.

That makes sense.....and you're right, it won't get the hardened deposits off. So, I suppose if the owner has neglected his car that long, he should pay the extra $$$ to have them all removed and cleaned. But, when it gets to that point, I would think that a shop would recommend having the Injectors replaced as opposed to cleaning. The shop would have to tell the customer that by bench cleaning, they could try and get them all back to perfect working condition.

I think that if you had a repair shop, having a machine like that would be beneficial to you. I just don't think that you would find enough clientele to actually make money, let alone pay for the machine from an independant small business point of view. Also, there are many, many cars out there that require removal of the upper and/or lower Intake manifolds just to access the Fuel rail/Injectors. Certain cars would be around $1000 to do.....I certainly wouldn't pay that much if new parts weren't being installed.

Some of you are going to come back with, "you work in a shop and are just saying that because it takes $$$ away from you". No I'm not. I'm just looking at the broad spectrum of the whole thing. To actually start a small business by bench cleaning Injectors would be a total loss IMO. It would take forever just to pay for the machine and start profiting. But, if you have the money to do so, I'd buy one. Just to have it.....it's awesome.

Many of the business that I've found online recommend having a second set of injectors.One being on the car while the other is serviced. Good point about "buried" injectors. The idea to have a second set to be serviced,and then to install them on some of the less accessible injector locations,Is definitely for the guy who is going to do the work themselves. many of these injector business wont touch your car. I don't blame em.

I cannot afford to buy new,if i buy at all.There is a healthy market selling used machines that I have to look into. It still might be a good idea. I could definitely come up with a price that is both beneficial to me as well as the shop.

I've got six here waiting to be cleaned, if you decide to move forward with this purchase. Would they be flow tested before/after?

robotennis61 wrote:

Is definitely for the guy who is going to do the work themselves. many of these injector business wont touch your car. I don't blame em.

Right, I was also thinking that. The DIY mechanic could benefit from a service like that. Or, the ppl on this website (like AA has already said he has 6 for you). Also, as for a "fair" price for a shop to have it done.....everything that requires a sublet for a service that the shop doesn't perform (like your proposed machine) gets marked up like 30% on the shop side, which the customer will pay. This way, the shop makes money on your service that you just performed at a "reasonable" price. Basically, they get paid for doing nothing. This drives me nuts. I absolutely hate having to sublet work, as the customer gets raped on it.

I think your market would be more along the lines of performance guys and DIY-ers.

Abaddon wrote:

robotennis61 wrote:

Is definitely for the guy who is going to do the work themselves. many of these injector business wont touch your car. I don't blame em.

Right, I was also thinking that. The DIY mechanic could benefit from a service like that. Or, the ppl on this website (like AA has already said he has 6 for you). Also, as for a "fair" price for a shop to have it done.....everything that requires a sublet for a service that the shop doesn't perform (like your proposed machine) gets marked up like 30% on the shop side, which the customer will pay. This way, the shop makes money on your service that you just performed at a "reasonable" price. Basically, they get paid for doing nothing. This drives me nuts. I absolutely hate having to sublet work, as the customer gets raped on it.

I think your market would be more along the lines of performance guys and DIY-ers.

You are right it's often the case sublettors get $$ for nothing, on the order of 25-50%. In most cases that stinks, sometimes not.

Last time I had a windshield replaced (somebody lobbed a large rock at my spouse's car from an overpass, with the expected result; I never found out who) after I checked prices (surprisingly moderate, actually) I had the local GM dealer do it. Reason - they have a different (better) installer than the ones doing installs for (random) consumers; I don't have to argue with the installer over quality of work and cleanup, or opening a window a bit so the urethane does not pop when the doors are closed, or anything; and their scheduling was (much) better. They got their %% for the QC and the final price to me was in the middle of the pack. Granted this dealer has a pretty busy bodyshop so mine would not be the only 'shield sublet that day to the same guy (there is *one* instlaler they let touch their cars). This does not work for everybody or everything, and isn't there always one exception to a rule? Yes as a rule shops take a sublet chop for essentially nothing, when the quality of the sublet work is policed well by the sublettee.

I think in this case Robo's big competition is the chemical flush and it could be of some benefit to have sublettors. But I was just sayin' - I don't know the business and I don't hav a dog in that hunt so to speak.

Good luck!

Albertj

Thanks for all the input people! I have the info packet coming in the mail and ill take a good look into all the particulars,special parts,extras..I think if i found a good used machine,I would give it a go. I'm sure that once I get a few jobs under my belt ,word will get around and business would trickle in ...These units have essentially everything you need to start right up,apart from the sonic cleaner and a few different manifolds for the odd injector..we'll see?

Looking for an affordable injector cleaning service that provided timely before/after flow testing and cleaning. So far best deal I found is witchhunter at $21/injector:

http://www.witchhunter.com/

Other options. Need the bench flow test service w/ before/after data.

I also let them soak in pure injector cleaner, and run pure injector cleaner through them. Having them off is a great time to test them.

Build a test bench using the rail, a fuel pump, some fuel hose, electrical wire, a bucket and a car battery. Doing ONE injector at a time, place a measuring cup under the injector and do a timed spray test (10 sec should do it). Verify the spray pattern and output volume (mark the cup to make sure all are about the same). Replace any injectors with a huge variance or bad spray pattern. I use pure injector cleaner in the bucket, but some guys just use gasoline.

Mr.injector.us

16$ per injector, full clean and rebuild.

i picked up 26% more flow. i can post the datasheet with before/after when i get home this evening.

Awesome info, guys. Thx!

Heres what you get from mr.injector.us.

Price: 16$ per injector.
Service: full cleaning, rebuilding, flowmatching. New pintles, internal filters, o-rings, painting.

I sent in a set of dirty series 1 injectors and this is what returned:


Well packed with bonus candy.


Each injector is individually sealed, lubed, and packed.

Fresh as new:





And the result sheet:


Details:



Overall I'm pretty happy. It was worth it for me even with shipping from and back to canada.

Thats awsome!

I didn't know fuel injectors could taste so good!?!?!?! WARNING!!!! Dont try it lol

Sent out fuel injectors to Mr. Injector (thanks Karma) for flow check and cleaning. Hoping to learn more about conditions in cylinder #1. Also waiting on new EGR tubes - GMpartsDirect can sometimes take FOREVER on delivery.

ittle wittle individual baggies! dats 2oo kuteee!!!

The candy's a sweet touch. Like a mother

Got my injectors back from Mr. Injector, complete with Jolly Ranchers candy. Also, someone shared my preference for using cute little individual baggies to return each injector. Nice! Turnaround was very fast, and the attention to detail was better than I expected. They replied to me via email when my injectors arrived, supplied flow graphs before and after. For $100, I'm impressed with the level of service. Thank you Karma for the tip!

From Bill of Mr. Injector:

"Your injectors arrived and have been serviced. I tested them in the order you had them marked. The numbers are still on them etched right on the bottom side of the electrical connector. They did have some reduction of flow and irregular pattens on all of them. They cleaned up perfectly. There will be a copy of the report in the package and I also attached on to this email."

The report (flow rates before and after cleaning):



The injectors were carefully marked when removed from the rail, so the numbers represent the cylinders each injector came from. As you may know, my engine had a piston failure occur in cylinder #1, as a result of detonation. Since my knock sensors have checked out good, and everything else was in good order, I had suspected a lean condition on cylinder #1 as the cause. This was the main reason for having them flow tested.

Looking at the above, you can see cylinder #1 is indeed one of the lesser flowing injectors, which is concerning. However, it should be noted that my PCM program uses an adjusted injector flow rate (IFR) table to compensate for (middle) cylinders 3 & 4, which are notorious for experiencing more detonation than the outside ones. The theory is they run hotter, inducing knock, and since the very first PCM flash 6 years ago, injectors 3 & 4 have been commanded to flow 4% longer (more) than the rest. The adjustment is achieved by cutting IFR to cylinders 1, 2, 3, and 4 to 96%, with 3 and 4 operating at 100%. Since fuel trims are derived from an average of ALL cylinders, it's all relative.

This ratio of flow "weight" between cyls 3/4 and cyls 1/2/5/6 would be 1:2, plus the adjusted rates, so:

1(1) + .96(2) = Total Fuel Delivery

Or:

34.25% (for 3/4) + 65.75% (for 1/2/5/6) = Total Fuel Delivery w/ flow adjustment

From this, we can calculate each injector's contribution to the total delivery:

Injector 1: 16.44%
Injector 2: 16.44%
Injector 3: 17.13%
Injector 4: 17.13%
Injector 5: 16.44%
Injector 6: 16.44%

And the resulting effective IFR for each injector:

Injector 1: 98.64%
Injector 2: 98.64%
Injector 3: 102.75%
Injector 4: 102.75%
Injector 5: 98.64%
Injector 6: 98.64%

Here's an adjusted flow graph showing the effective IFR:



Basically the same before & after flow analysis, now taking into consideration 4% more fuel to injectors 3/4. The increase % values are slightly different from the original as a result. The adjusted (effective) flow graph shows a more realistic picture of how each injector was performing at the time of the failure (blue bars).

Now it can be seen that injector #1 was effectively flowing the least amount of fuel when the failure occurred. The other injectors seemed to be flowing a satisfactory amount - with #6 being questionable. This leads me to believe there was in fact a lean condition present inside cylinder #1, which contributed to detonation, causing the resulting chipped piston.

(Injector #3 tested the least flow, but was likely getting correct fuel because of the added duration. #4 was running a bit rich, so no problems here.)

Hopefully this solves the mystery of how piston #1 met its end. There may have been other factors, but this is some strong evidence, supporting my hunch there was a clog. The clean injectors are now installed with the new rebuild. Thinking I may replace them once again before any future track duty attempts, depending on how many miles are on by that time.

AA,
Short of sending injectors to a service, is there a write up regarding cleaning?
I doubt I'll be hitting the track, but efficient flow needs to happen.

I do not believe there is a viable substitute to injector cleaning over sending them out for cleaning.
if youre handy with elctronics,i aint,there is this vid showing how to make your own inj cleaning machine.

Holy Moly. You mean WD-40 won't do the job? The man has a can right there
JK, Robo... I was only hoping for a garage band answer so I could DIY.

i would tackle such a diy but im part dumb and the simple things elude me. i guess if i really sat down and wrapped my head around this diy ,i could do it.ill let you make it and when yer done you can rent it to me! deal?

Ha. Not gonna happen. Won't be cleaning them routinely, so seems best to leave it to experts.
But, thanks for the input

I noticed that he also sells the filters, o-rings, etc. to rebuild your own injectors if anyone was interested http://www.mrinjectorparts.com.