FAQ: Fragged Tensioner/Idler Pulley Reports & Questions

I just finished helping a friend do this repair on his 97 NA Riv. Here is the pic of the idler pulley that broke and shredded his belt leaving him stranded. It doesn't look bad besides the chunk missing, but the bearing fell apart and was just flopping around there.

I've read through this entire thread and a few others regarding replacement of the tensioner and idler pulleys, but I still have a few questions.

First, this is for a 1995 SC Riviera.

The car only has 43k miles, but I'm certain that the pulleys are all original. So I'm going to change them all out while I'm in there since the belts are very old as well and splitting.

I already have the following belts:

Dayco 5060860
Dayco 5060605


I'm more interested in reliability than absolute performance, so if the consensus is that the steel pulleys are more durable (but may exhibit a little more drag) I'll go with them.

It appears from the diagram for the 95 Riviera that there are four pulleys.



Based on the experience here, can someone verify:

1) How many and what P/N metal pulleys are recommended for each location?
2) It looks like one pulley (ribbed) may not be available in metal? If so, what manufacturer and P/N is recommended?
3) Which if any of the pulley locations uses a reverse threaded bolt?
4) Is there any recommended method to hold the tensioner still while loosening/tightening the pulley bolt? Is it a non-issue?

Hoping to learn the most durable part selection for the 95 pulleys based on what everyone here has learned over the years.

Thanks!
Al

Al, this thread is more for general discussion of pulleys failing, causes, etc. For specific info relating to series I installation, this thread is more appropriate:

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t5963-write-up-replacing-belt-tensioner-pulley-series-i

PS - anytime the topic becomes specific to series I engine, it will not be posted in Care & Maint forums.

For the general discussion:

Pullies are discussed to exhaustion in this thread. Some of the points:

Plastic pullies are fine from Gates or Dayco. If you have anyones plastic pullies you need to check them once in a while by slipping the belt off and turning them all by hand. Any pullies that bind or make a noise mist be replaced, as they don't take lubrication (the lube would end up on your belt - THINK about it).

Metal pullies tend to fail by going offaxis. Plastic ones tend to overheat and the plastic melts, or they seize and the plastic frags. Hence for either type no kidding you need to check them as PM.

I am told the plastic ones take less power from the engine in use. I am told police cars will not use plastic ones period.

Reading back thru this thread i dont think plastic vs metal matters that much, as long as you check them for PM and replace as indicated by any noise or binding. I am OK with plastic but prefer metal because when the plastic ones fail they seem to do so catastrophically. When the metal ones fail the belt won't track right and eventually the bearing comes apart. I have taken both types to failure. What I learned is when either the plastic or metal bullies start squeaking at all, even if just a while at cold start then they quiet down, it is time to find the squeaker/binder and replace it.

I had my idler shatter a couple of years ago. Replaced it with a plastic and had it shatter about a month ago. I would have expected a little more life out of it than 2 years and about 20k miles

duster_do_little wrote:

I had my idler shatter a couple of years ago. Replaced it with a plastic and had it shatter about a month ago. I would have expected a little more life out of it than 2 years and about 20k miles

That can happen depending on whose you get. 2 years sounds about right for the cheapies, or sounds like you have a warranty claim for a Gates or Dayco (the Gates and Dayco pullies should last longer than 2 yrs).

AAA discount at NAPA is suspect at best. I got four plugs and a tube of anti seize and the receipt showed no savings over list. Pretty hard to argue with a kid who doesn't know what pre-gapped means.

IFallsRon wrote:

AAA discount at NAPA is suspect at best. I got four plugs and a tube of anti seize and the receipt showed no savings over list. Pretty hard to argue with a kid who doesn't know what pre-gapped means.

My NAPA receipts always show only the net discounted price, not list and net.

Well, I can attest to the advice that "if it squeals even just mildly and just a short time on start up"  .... you're about to lose a pulley or a belt.

I've had a very brief and not very loud squeal about three times upon startup over the last couple weeks.  It only lasted a moment and then went away.  We had some unusually cold weather and I chalked it up to cold belts.  

Whatever the reason, I lost my accessory belt today.  It didn't completely come apart, but it split off two ribs and lost about 1/3 of its length.

It made quite a racket.  I pulled over almost immediately, but it had already beat a hole in my hood pad      This was particularly upsetting since I had just put a "new" perfect pad on the hood, and had painted the "Riviera" script last fall.  It looked great.  Now not so much.  Fortunately the hole is pretty small and well defined, about 3x4 inches.  I hate to think I'll have to replace it again, especially if another belt failure just tear it up, which seems so common on these cars.  So I may look at mounting a piece of ABS or something over the hole that can take the abuse if another belt fails.

What is also frustrating is that the belts and pulleys all are less than a year old, although they do have about 21k miles on them.  Still low mileage in my humble opinion.

The pulleys and belts are Dayco. The three main idlers are the smooth metal units, and the one ribbed is plastic. I assume the idler on the accessory belt must have started to lock up or drag and ate up the belt. ...don't know for sure yet. Or maybe the belt was just defective. I may never know.

So, I'm going to get new pulleys and tensioners while I'm at it.

I'm also going to use the Gates green "Fleetrunner" belts. They have our sizes, same part numbers just with an "HD" appended to the part number. They are apparently very high strength/lifespan.

http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=2690&location_id=2743


Kind of a bummer....

Al

Maybe you could just cut out a rectangle along the entire hood pad above the belt system and replace it with plastic? I think it would look pretty nice that way.

Sorry to hear about this, Al. It's happened to most of us at one time or another. I can remember when my Riv still had low miles, that was the first thing to go. I think it had less than 80k - left me stranded, but I turned the car off quick, before any damage was done to the belt or hood pad. It was the smooth pulley under the engine mount.

I've had better luck over the years, replacing a bad pulley at the first signs of trouble. I removed my hood pad, which helps me to hear pulleys and other noises when they start. I keep a spare idler/tensioner pulley and a ratchet in a small tool box in the trunk, just in case...

al_roethlisberger wrote:

I'm also going to use the Gates green "Fleetrunner" belts. They have our sizes, same part numbers just with an "HD" appended to the part number.  They are apparently very high strength/lifespan.

http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=2690&location_id=2743


Kind of a bummer....

Al

Since my mechanic said my water pump is showing signs of bearing failure, I have decided to replace the belts at the same time as the pump. My Riv showed signs of neglect before I got her, so I have been slowly bringing her back to health. The "Fleetrunner" belts you mentioned sound like a good investment. Would you be so kind as to provide us with the details such as part numbers and any issues in ordering the parts? The hood liner in my car came with a tear just above the belts, so I guess this is a common problem with Rivs. If I'm able to replace the liner I'll want to keep it pretty. Thanks. -Rob

Fleetrunner belts are probably a good investment. I say this based on Gates' reputation as a respected belt manufacturer. What I know for sure from experience is Gates' standard belt line (also sold through NAPA brand will last 90-100k miles in our cars before needing replaced. This includes cars modified for higher HP engine performance, as well as daily driven cars.

The point I want to make - most belt failures on our cars are a result of failed pulleys, or pulleys/belts out of alignment, NOT straight up belt failure. Unless your standard Gates belt has more than 90k miles, it should not be slipping, chirping, or cracking to the put of needing replaced, unless of course the belt has been subject to chemical abuse (excess oil or fluid/heat exposure).

The Fleetrunner may be added insurance, but Gates' standard line is more than impressive for the price.

AA wrote:

Fleetrunner belts are probably a good investment. I say this based on Gates' reputation as a respected belt manufacturer. What I know for sure from experience is Gates' standard belt line (also sold through NAPA brand will last 90-100k miles in our cars before needing replaced. This includes cars modified for higher HP engine performance, as well as daily driven cars.

The point I want to make - most belt failures on our cars are a result of failed pulleys, or pulleys/belts out of alignment, NOT straight up belt failure. Unless your standard Gates belt has more than 90k miles, it should not be slipping, chirping, or cracking to the put of needing replaced, unless of course the belt has been subject to chemical abuse (excess oil or fluid/heat exposure).

The Fleetrunner may be added insurance, but Gates' standard line is more than impressive for the price.

Agreed completely on all points. The Fleetrunner belts are about twice as expensive, so that is a consideration.

The only addtional insurance the Fleetrunner belts MAY have is that they in theory are a bit "tougher" so they may last just a little longer before disintegrating when a pulley goes south. I don't know that to be a fact though.

Even if does give one a little more time to catch the problem, it would still be up to you to notice that the pulley or other abnormal wear is taking place though, as the belt will still eventually fail.

Rob, the part number for the Gates Fleetrunner belt is exactly the same as the standard belt, only with an "HD" appended.

So for example, for the 1995 Series 1, the two standard Gates belt part numbers are:

K060605
K060860

The Gates Fleetrunner version's part numbers are:

K060605HD
K060860HD

Al

Anyone else agree that it should become standard practice to replace all belts/pulleys when one of them goes?

Standard practice? No. Good idea? Maybe. Mechanical parts could last 5 miles, or forever. There's no telling how long something like that is going to last. I've had a pulley frag on me after replacing it a month prior. I certainly wasn't going to replace everything again.....

Yeah, now that I think of it I should have refined my statement a bit..... But I think you understand what I was trying to say. Basically if it hasn't been done in awhile and something goes, replace it all. That sound better?

al_roethlisberger wrote:

Rob, the part number for the Gates Fleetrunner belt is exactly the same as the standard belt, only with an "HD" appended.

So for example, for the 1995 Series 1, the two standard Gates belt part numbers are:

K060605
K060860

The Gates Fleetrunner version's part numbers are:

K060605HD
K060860HD

Al

One thing more. I went to the website and used their parts finder. The part numbers that it gives me are:

K060938
K060721

I have a 96 SC Riv. Maybe the belts are different for different years?


Thanks, Al. After reading a little more it looks like I had beter replace the pulleys as well. It looks like Gates sells those too, along with hoses, etc. Lots of local distributors in my area too. In for a penny, in for a pound, as they say.

Right. More of a "while you're in there" kind of thing, being that those pulleys and belts are a PITA to change for most people.
I still don't understand why those pulleys only ride on a tiny little half-sleeve instead of a full one. It just puts more side load on the bearings. You think they could've come up with some sort of fix for that.

I've been trying to make sense of the selection on Rockauto for the idler(x2) and tensioner(x2) pullies but I'm getting confused over the seemingly inconsistent option of sizes and grooved vs smooth and to which will be correct for the 95. All of mine are fine but at 115k miles definitely due for having on hand

Quote :

Anyone else agree that it should become standard practice to replace all belts/pulleys when one of them goes?

If it's your first time replacing any of them, yes. If you've been running for many thousands of miles on pulleys you've replaced before, I wouldn't touch them. Like most products, pulleys fit on a bell curve. A portion will last shorter than average life span. But a few will last longer than average - if you've got one of these, keep it as long as it will last!

I use the same thinking with wheel hub bearings, or any other part of the car that can be replaced one at a time without upsetting balance (obvious things that don't apply are struts, springs, and brake pads - items that slowly degrade in performance over time).

Animator wrote:

al_roethlisberger wrote:

Rob, the part number for the Gates Fleetrunner belt is exactly the same as the standard belt, only with an "HD" appended.

So for example, for the 1995 Series 1, the two standard Gates belt part numbers are:

K060605
K060860

The Gates Fleetrunner version's part numbers are:

K060605HD
K060860HD

Al

One thing more. I went to the website and used their parts finder. The part numbers that it gives me are:

K060938
K060721

I have a 96 SC Riv. Maybe the belts are different for different years?


Thanks, Al. After reading a little more it looks like I had beter replace the pulleys as well. It looks like Gates sells those too, along with hoses, etc. Lots of local distributors in my area too. In for a penny, in for a pound, as they say.

Yes, the Series 1 and Series 2 have different belt routing, and I'm sure different belt lengths.

The 95 SC is a Series 1 engine.



Al

llamalor2112 wrote:

I've been trying to make sense of the selection on Rockauto for the idler(x2) and tensioner(x2) pullies but I'm getting confused over the seemingly inconsistent option of sizes and grooved vs smooth and to which will be correct for the 95. All of mine are fine but at 115k miles definitely due for having on hand

 
You can find the right idler and tensioner pulleys here for the 95 Series 1 engine:
 
https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t5963-write-up-replacing-belt-tensioner-pulley-series-i
 
 
Al

In a the most obvious, right in front of me place of all. Of course haha! Thanks Al

I'm a huge proponent of Gates belts. If a pulley frags or a bearing goes, it doesn't matter how good the belt is, it's going to get thrown due to alignment issues. Nothing the stronger belt can do for you there.