FAQ: Fuel Pump - General Questions, Compatibility & Troubleshooting

cjoform wrote:

I have a 99 silver arrow with the SC 3.8. Ive owned it for about a month now. Three times since I've owned it the car has randomly stalled out. Twice I was driving at 55mph and the engine shut down. I was able to restart the engine no problem. Once the engine stalled just after I was at WOT. About 5 seconds after I slowed back down the engine stalled. All 3 times have been easy restarts. Anyone know if this is a common problem? I will tell you that I know the car needs an alternator. Atleast thats what a friend who tested said. The batter also put out about 11 volts with the car off which I know is low. Could the bad abttery and alternator be causing the problem?

I had this same problem a few months after I purchased my car new in 1994. The car cut out while I was getting on I95 and while idling at a light.. Each time it was an easy restart. There was no check engine light. After about two weeks the check engine light came on. Based on the service record, the code was a P0134 and the dealer replaced the oxygen sensor.

The problem did not reappear until 2008. At that time the car stalled while driving in city traffic and there was no check engine light. I was able to restart the car. After a few days the check engine light appeared and based on the service record it was the EGR valve.

As far as I know, all 3.8L Supercharged cars used the same pump - not the same as the 3.8L NA.

AA wrote:

As far as I know, all 3.8L Supercharged cars used the same pump - not the same as the 3.8L NA.

Cody told me that His 98-00 Regal GS (L67) fuel pump was significantly different than his 97 RIV (L67) fuel pump

They are different part numbers. That much i know from searching for fuel pumps for the Riv.

98riviera98 wrote:

AA wrote:

As far as I know, all 3.8L Supercharged cars used the same pump - not the same as the 3.8L NA.

Cody told me that His 98-00 Regal GS (L67) fuel pump was significantly different than his 97 RIV (L67) fuel pump

I've looked at pumps made by airtex, bosch, and delphi very closely in my reserach to do mine recently. Looking at those three examples of the pump meant to be a direct fit for a 98-00 gtp, they were all different. The interiors of the buckets were different designs and the pumps themselves were different enough to not be swappable between them. This is just different manufacturers parts for the same application. Not even the delphi part had the venturi feed line like the original production part does. But yes these varied a lot with different pickup designs and not one of them had anything that looked similar to my 97 riv bucket.

I would surmize that these different manufactuers came up with their own solutions to keep the bucket filled with gas. It wasn't very easy for me to figure out how they worked just by looking at them apart but it was easy to see that my racetronix pump wasn't going to work properly in those pump modules.

My plan at this point is to swap the racetronix pump right into my stock assembly in place of my rigged walbro and hook it up just like the stock pump. The only complication I can foresee is the condition of the venturi line after it's been pulled off twice. Eric said he had to modify his stock assembly in his 97 with the bucket from a 98-00 gtp to use the racetronix pump but I'm going to try it my way first, especially since I can't seem to find the find the proper example of a 98-00 pump assembly to get a bucket from.

I havent messed with this car since I posted the topic. I stopped driving it. I recently about 1 week ago started driving it. The car has shut off on me 5 times just today. 3 times while moving and twice idling at a stop. I was thinking about the ignition switch and do not know if this matter or not but when the car stalls the lights on the dash stay on such as when you turn the key to the on position before you engage the ignition. If it was a bad ignition switch wouldnt the lights go off? Also I wanted to add that when it stalled at idle today i could feel that it was stalling. It did not sputter or shake. The engine simply started dropping RPM's. I feathered the gas peddle a little bit and it didnt even act like I was trying to give it gas, just stalled out. Any other ideas?

Could be a bad MAF, but you should get a code for that. Could also be a bad cam position sensor, sometimes there is not a code thrown for that, although usually there is.

It _could_ be a lot of things. It's hard to diagnose because it's inconvenient, but you're going to have to start carrying some electrical troubleshooting tools around with you.

Next time it dies out go see if there is fuel pressure in the line (with the key off). You can quickly test this by relieving the schrader valve on the fuel injectior rail, it should spray you right in the eyes if there is good fuel pressure... (read as warning!)

I had a very similar problem, it turned out to be the fuel pump on mine as well.

Thanks for the info. A friend of mine said he would loan me his fuel pressure gauge. I suppose I could drive around with it taped to the windshield and see what happens. What is the recommended fuel pressure for this car?

The rule of thumb is that if you disconnect the vacuum line from the FP regulator, pressure should be 50 PSI. But while the vacuum line is hooked up, FP varies while driving. I would be more interested in what the reading is when it's dead - when it's running low fuel pressure isn't going to make it die, but when it's dead if there's 0 fuel pressure with the key on you might have found part of the problem.

Well car died completely today. No pressure at the shrader valve. Nothing comes out. So I checked the fuel pump relay (replaced it with another.) Same result. I crawled into the trunk popped the hatch and unplugged the pigtail. The hotwire is only 10.2x volts with the key on. Battery had 12.2 volts. Shouldnt the pump receive battery voltage? Also could I just rig up a hot wire to the pump and a ground to just see if the pump comes on? Thanks

You can definitely hotwire the pump to see if it turns on - or where the relay is you can just put a jumper wire across the correct terminals to jump it to on.

When jumping the relay, have someone available up front to read fuel pressure and record, in case there is some pressure, as that number will be important.
Also, if the pump does come on while jumping it, DO NOT LET THE Fuel Pressure Exceed 65 PSi as you will blow out the fuel pressure regulator.
If you cannot get the pump to come on by jumping it directly from the relay, then you know what needs to be done.!!!!!!!!
Good Luck

Could either of you explain how to jump the relay? I was just going to run a hot wire to the pump connector and ground the pump. If jumping the relay is easier then i'd rather go that route. Thanks

As I posted before:

In the interest of saving time and avoiding headaches I'd suggest a dealer diagnostic trip. Or a trip to an independent mechanic who has the necessary 2-way scanner (maybe they have a Vetronix Tech II). The bidirectional scanner will send commands to the car's computers and components to check and test them, as well as report back on for instance voltage level of the battery and such without having to pull out the seat for instance.

Albertj

Well, the car is dead so i guess a trip to a diag center is out unless your going to tow it.
Without being able to post a copy of the wiring diagram I can't explain how to jump the relay, if you don't already know.
Maybe someone else here can try. I know how to do it, just don't know how to explain it.

cjoform wrote:

Im thinking its not the fuel pump simply because the car sometimes wont even crank. Its only happened a few times but within a month the car has stalled 3 times and failed to start 3 times. That is no bueno. Thanks for your replies. Im going to have a friend see if he can retrieve any stored codes tonight. I'll let you all know my findings tomorrow.

I just went back and read all the post's on this problem. I must admit i had forgotten about the history of this car / problem. Why do you keep jumping around with your diagnostics. You need to follow a logical path or have someone that can do it. Otherwise you are going to replace parts that are not bad.
I thought you had narrowed it down to the Ignition switch.????
Now I'm semi confused and must reiterate what Albert said.

the dad in me needs to point out that hotwiring it at the pump could turn out to be a bad idea, that's a little too close to the tank/fumes for me to be comfortable doing it.

to bypass the relay, look at the way it was installed, then look at the relay. There are 4 numbers on the relay, I can't remember them exactly right now. There is also a small diagram that shows a small connection and a large connection between the numbers. This is a standard relay, very similar to those used in aftermarket lighting. You want to put your jumper wire across the larger of the connections, the supply and FP wires, not the 'signal' wires.

I never narrowed it to an ignition switch. That is what was recommended to look at first. So I kind of considered that but with no definite answer. It's still a possibility i suppose. I dont think it is the switch personally because of people I have talked to that have told me it isnt. Heres where I'm at so everyone is on the same page. Car has no fuel pressure. Car has spark. Lights in dash come on when key is on. Car cranks over just fine. The non cranking issue before I'm assuming was the battery in the car. It ended up having less than 10 volts. I replaced the battery with a new one. The only thing that is different now than before was that the car always turns over. I'm assuming the battery was to blame for that. The problem now is no fuel. No pressure what so ever at the rail. I dont even hear the pump cycle on. so I think I've got it ran down to he pump possibly failing. I wont be just yanking and replacing parts. I dont have the cash for that. I dont have the cash to have it towed to a dealer or even scanned at a dealer. I'm a broke college kid who luckily has another car to drive until the snow falls. Thanks for the help.

I found a Riviera fuel pump on Ebay motors a few weeks ago for someone else for less than $50.00 shipped and had it in hand in 3 days.
It is a kit with the pump and all needed hose's and clamps. It requires that you remove the actual pump from the canister assembly.
I think there are write ups and photo's on how to do that.
If you want to buy a whole assembly with canister and fuel level sensor complete, I have seen them for sale between $200.00 and $400.00.
You may be able to find one cheaper if you have the time to keep looking and waiting.
But the "Buy it Now" stuff is priced as i said.
If your sure it's the pump that has failed, which it sounds like it has, and mechanically inclined, the removal of the pump from the canister is relatively easy. So that is one way to save some money.
Also be aware that the fuel pumps for a supercharged engine and a non- supercharged are different. So make sure you are ordering the correct part. If you change out the pump I highly recommend you change the fuel filter also. Buy that from the local auto parts store.
You should get in the habit of changing the fuel filter on these cars annually, it will help extend the life of the fuel pump.
Also, purchase a new O-Ring or Seal that goes under the retainer for the fuel pump and get a new Retaining ring as you will most likely find it is rusted and it will make the installation that much easier. Both the Seal and Retainer are inexpensive and available either at a local GM dealer or some auto parts store. Monsterparts.com has them but you will have to pay for shipping and wait for them to arrive. By the time you add shipping fee's you can get it at the dealer for the same money.
I would recommend the dealer as you know you will get the correct and latest part number for your year vehicle. They did make a change to the o-ring seal after production. The retainer and seals are used on many different models so are usually in stock at the dealer.
The Ebay vendor for the fuel pump is named: weonlysellfuelpumps and I want to correct myself, the total cost shipped was $56.94 with shipping insurance.

Thanks for the info on the pump. A friend of mine who is a ford mechanic is gonna come check it out soon. Hopefully he can get this figured out for me. I am mechanically inclined I've built a couple street strip cars but I know nothing of electronics and wiring issues. I've never had to deal with those in both my cutlasses that I put engines in. As a matter of fact this is the newest car I've owned so it's all a learning process for me. Again thanks for every ones help. I will get back to this thread when I find out more.

If it's the pump, you'll find that most of the trouble of fixing it is just removing the carpet from the trunk to get access. It's the easiest thing to do. When you do buy the kit (which is the cheap and proper way to go), call the vendor on ebay and make sure it will work for you Riviera. As far as I can tell, there is a difference between Series I and Series II, SC and non SC.

Also, as I pointed out on the write up for fuel pumps, you need a good heat gun. Some say hair dryer will work - but you can pick uop a cheap heat gun for $15 and if nothing else - you have it for removing old paint from your walls.

Estimated time: Barring some unforeseen issue -1 hour tops. Took me about 20 minutes.

Needlenose, flathead, and patience is all you need. Most kits come with step by step instructions. Good luck.

Mark,
I've never changed just the pump, I've only done the complete assembly - canister and all.
Just how do you remove the pump from the canister. Is it easy to explain or just easier to do.
I haven't looked back on this thread to see if it is already been written.
Thanks.

I wish I took some pics. So, the top end of the pump is attached to the lower via 2 tabs.
Push the tabs in and the top end slides away.
There are two wire connectors at the top (both have plastic pins a green one and a red one that need to be pulled) and those pop out.
There are two hoses that go from the actual pump that's in the canister to the top. Cut whose out because any kit you buy has relacement ones (or they should)
At that point, there should be one more wire connenctor that located at the pump and if I remember right, it has a gray pin. Pull the pin and release the connector and the housing should be free from the canister.
Finally, to free the pump, just wiggle off the filter and it should be fully disassembled.

1 note, I'm doing this off of memory so some specifics may be different but it's essentially all there. I'm actually so "pumped" (pardon the pun) about this that I'm actually buying a couple cars from tw ofriends who ironically had their fuel pumps go out. The shops quoted them $800 and $1000 for their cars to be repaired and they're just giving up. I'm buying these for a $100 each and redoing the pumps via the kits and maybe just flip the cars for some quick cash.

BTW, I did offer to help them, they both declined so I'm doing them a favor and saving the cars from the green mile.