Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation

Ha! Why didn't I think of that?!! If I had a hitch on the Olds, it would be a done deal.

A buddy lent me his Dodge truck. It's still Detroit iron, I guess.

Before I go, I will be stripping off the bolt-ons today. This should be fun.

AA wrote:

Before I go, I will be stripping off the bolt-ons today. This should be fun.

There is a bolt near the base of the SC idler tower, it is a short filler bolt on the top corner of the front head. I only found it because I was swapping engines with a GTP and the idler towers were different, and I couldn't fit it. Anyway, after you strip everything make sure you can see three empty bolt holes on each head. Mine was covered with oil/dirt/grease and I couldn't even see it, other than realizing that something was in the way!

Anyway, you don't want to have any extra parts go off to the machine shop, it's likely they won't come back.


A tip for starting a freshly rebuilt motor - when you get it back and most things hooked up, pull the fuel pump relay and don't put spark plugs in it, but hook up everything else. Crank the starter until you get oil pressure. Pre-filling the oil filter will help it prime the oil pump quicker. I don't think these have a shaft you can turn to prime the oil pump.

On the V8s I have rebuilt over the years, we always drive the oil pump for a few minutes with a priming shaft attached to a drill until we build oil pressure, and then while still running the oil pump by drill we will crank the starter on and off for a bit. This lets the lifters finish filling and gets oil well into all the bearing journals etc. Then on first startup, we always have good oil pressure right away.

Thanks for the tips. I'm getting ready to dive in. I am leaving the heads attached, but removing valve covers, blower, LIM, pulleys, EGR, and anything else I can find.

Here's the engine from a few different angles, before removing anything. I have to agree with my wife - this does feel eerily like doing a heart transplant.









Now to take off the pieces my engine builder doesn't need, starting with the supercharger.





Interesting how the idler pulley bracket is filled with coolant in operation.



Trying to salvage the plastic coolant elbow from the LIM. I failed. The elbow itself is intact, but the end broke off in the LIM. Oh well, $12 part.



And here she is, totally stripped down to block, heads, internals and valvetrain. It's actually a pretty small engine.





Strapped in for a 4 1/2 trip to Utica, MI, which is between Detroit and Flint (ranked #2 and #1 most violent cities in the U.S.). It's kinda cool how this engine was originally built in Flint, and now will be rebuilt only 20 miles away.

Ok, so it's been a little while. Over about a week's period, my engine was completely disassembled, cleaned, painted, and reassembled by Bill Scheel of Utica, MI. Bill has 35 years experience at building GM V-8 and V-6 motors (thanks to CharlieRobinson for the tip!). After talking to Bill for a few minutes, it became clear he knew a few things I didn't, so for the sake of time and getting it done right, I decided to use him for the job.

Based on hearing audible rod knock at the time of the event, we assumed one of the conrod bearings had spun, which it turned out had in fact occurred. We had assumed a few things that could have caused to the failure. These assumptions were theoretical, made without knowing the internal condition of the engine. None proved to be absolutely correct, but some may have played a small role.

1. The OEM LIM gasket, which knowingly seeped Dexcool into the oil, was still in use. This could have caused the con rod bearings to degrade and fail.
2. Low oil level and/or brief oil starvation could have caused a bearing to fail.
3. Spark Knock/Detonation could have damaged a bearing, causing failure.

When the engine was torn down, some discoveries were made. First and foremost, a chipped piston was found in cylinder #1. The conrod bearing in the same cylinder was destroyed. This suggests both occurrences were related, since they happened at the same time (I also noticed a loss of power and pulsation accompanying the rod knock - this was the chipped piston). Did the bearing go first, causing the piston to slam into the head? We thought so at first, but then learned there is a small amount of clearance (.030-.040) which should prevent this, even with a sloppy bearing. The piston must have chipped first, and we all know what causes that...



So, the diagnosis for failure is as follows, in this order:

1. Engine was old at 246,676 miles. Some parts were understandably weak from stress.
2. Likely cause of chipped piston #1 was detonation from excessive heat and/or lean condition.
3. Rod bearing failure occurred when chip of piston became wedged between piston & head.

According to the builder, the rest of the engine's condition was "among the best he'd seen, especially with the mileage". There was NO evidence of Dexcool contamination. All other bearings and pistons were in perfect shape. There was no evidence of detonation in other cylinders. Cylinder bores were so smooth and round that no machine work was required. The crankshaft was damaged from bearing #1, but otherwise it was in good shape. The original timing chain was still reasonably tense, and the chain damper had plenty of material remaining. Head were reused. Valves and valve guides were all perfect, and so were reused. OEM camshaft was also reused. INTENSE Gen III roller rocker arms, now with over 166k miles on them, are still in "like-new" condition.

This was all reassuring, knowing my engine could have gone another 250k if driven reasonably, and at the same time disappointing to know that dream was killed by spark knock in only one cylinder. As you can see, the chip from the piston wasn't even very big! But like with anything we do, the value is in learning.

Things I now know, that before I wasn't sure of:

• Conventional 10W30 oil is good enough to keep a 3800 V-6 in top shape for near 1/4 M miles if changed religiously every 3000 miles. A couple of times I let it go to 3500 or so.

• Having a leaky LIM gasket and using Dexcool is not necessarily a lethal combination if the condition is watched carefully and oil is changed at the recommended interval. I first learned of the problem from BlackStone Labs in August 2008 (100k miles ago), and the engine builder says he wouldn't have suspected a leak if he hadn't already known of the issue.

• Running 1.9:1 ratio high lift rockers with 90# LS6 valve springs seems to be an extremely solid combination, and contrary to what some say, doesn't cause excessive wear to the timing chain and dampener. Oil-restricted rocker arms apparently do provide enough oil to the top end at high RPM.

And perhaps the most important lesson:

Even when the engine seems to be running in perfect harmony without any KR, the unthinkable can happen. Whatever the case may be - clogged injector, bad knock sensor, etc., I intend to do some testing to figure out what it was. I suspect a lean condition developed in cylinder #1, for whatever reason. If that's the case, I don't know how what could have been done to avoid what happened.

Anyway, here's the new engine! Enjoy!







She's home now being put back together in my spare time. I'll post some more pics soon!

I was also struck by the heart transplant analogy as I viewed the sequential shots of the engine pull for the first time tonight.
Nice to start with a fresh pump from here on out, though
Looks like they painted more than the block. Looks great.
Nice to be able to trust your mechanic, eh?
Can you say what the bill ran... just the block rebuild?
As I mentioned, I may have a similar issue in my new '98. It will be delivered to my buddy's compound Sat. Only then will we be able to start a complete diagnosis.
Best of luck with your new heart

Thanks Aaron. Just goes to show you what an amazing engine the 3800 is. Detonation at extended full throttle is a real engine killer. Cast pistons are more susceptible to damage than forged pistons. Whenever I race my GS, I put in 2-3 gallons of 110 leaded racing gas just as a bit of insurance against detonation. The increased octane may slow the car down a bit, but it is worth the piece of mind.

I also think you should look into a deeper oil pan so that you can run more oil and keep it away from the crank. Oil being thrown up on the cylinder walls can cause detonation in of itself. Aftermarket oil pans also include better baffling to keep the oil at the pick up. Both of those things are very important for the type of driving you were doing. Hope your Riv is back in action soon, and better than ever. Good luck.

Fantastik! What a cool end to a disastrous day.well...It cost $ to get it right and the trip into the heart of violence probably had you looking over your shoulder once or twice so..let do a check list
1) Engine rebuilt , check
2) Wife waiting at home with open arms and a hot meal,check
3) Dodge did what it was built for,check
4) Clean out the transport vehicle,workin on it
5) Engine back in car,a few beers from now and sighs of relief & contentment,check!

Thanks for everyone's comments.

denim: Bill's rate for rebuild is a flat $1600 for an engine that is engine is delivered and picked-up. He does not receive or ship engines from carriers. To remove the engine from the car and reinstall, it's an extra $800. I opted to save the money and extract the unit myself. Also, I provided numerous parts for the rebuild, so there was some discounting, but I won't say exactly what I paid. If you use Bill, and you give him a bunch of parts to install, he's going to consider lowering your price accordingly.

Larry: funny you mention the octane. I had plans the day before to pick up some Sunoco 100 octane race gas, but ran out of time and decide to use my normal 93. After all, the engine was tuned to run WOT all day on 93, or so I felt. I still think something went awry inside #1 to cause this. There was absolutely nothing wrong with any of the other pistons or rod bearings, no evidence of detonation at all. If the situation arose as a result of a general lack of anti-knock juice, I would expect to see the problem in more than just one cylinder. Like the other L67 in Bill's shop - with multiple chipped pistons.

robo: Detroit is an interesting place, that's for sure. I cruised down 8 Mile to get to the shop, didn't see anything too out of the ordinary, but I went during the morning and afternoon time. I'm sure things change after dark. Utica is a nice place, though from what I could tell. It was a fun little experience. I'm glad it all worked out.

BEAUTIFUL! Engine looks amazing! Cannot wait to see more pictures!
Congratulations! THE PHOENIX IS HERE!!!

Good to see you have a healthy engine again! Get a new oil press switch - they can start tossing oil right out through the electrical connector at any moment when they get old, try not to use sealer when reinstalling knock sensors, make sure you don't install the flywheel wrong - the bolts should all go in very easy (they won't if it's clocked wrong), I would recommend going to the dealer for the replacement LIM plastic coolant elbow (there's still bad doorman ones sitting on the shelves), and while you're there, new orings for the heater pipes that go into the tensioner would not hurt, etc. lol

I've already bought the elbow, LIM gaskets, TB and SC gaskets from INTENSE. Today I'm picking up a set of 8 new flexplate screws. Tube of red loctite is at the ready. Aligning the flexplate shouldn't be an issue - there are two holes on the mounting surface to the crank, which I noticed left distinct impressions in the original flexplate. These holes are slightly shifted off center, so there's only one way to line it up. You can see the two holes in the last pic I posted above.

AA,
Did I read somewhere here that the high-lift rockers you're using are discontinued?

Yes, they were, a long time ago. A set recently came up for sale - maybe still available?

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t9216-fs-harland-sharp-19-rockers-valve-springs-retainers-pushrods

If you can't get them, there are other options out there.

Made some progress over the past week. It's been slow going, but getting there.

Headers wrapped. Link to write-up:





Cleaned the engine bay with GUNK degreaser, the expensive can, three cans actually. A large part of the reinstallation was cleaning parts to the same level of the new engine rebuild. Link to parts cleaning. This was not easy, since the motor is almost too clean:



Everybody in the bath!





Before:



After: Link to TB cleaning info:







Ready for assembly:



LIM gasket installation. Link to write-up:





LIM installed. Use red Loctite (GM 272 or equivalent), tighten in stages to 11 lb-ft, in alternating sequence from the central screws outward:





Blower on. Tighten in stages to 17 lb-ft, alternating from the center outward. I used red Loctite:



Throttle body. Tighten nuts to 89 in-lb:



Accessories:



Valve covers. Tighten to 13 lb-ft, alternating from center outward:



Knock sensor and starter motor: Starter Info











Ready to drop her in, but first need to install the flexplate. The 8 flexplate screws are not reusable. You can purchase a pack for around $27 at your local GM parts counter. ARP makes a replacement for $30, sold through INTENSE racing, if you want those.

Finger tighten all screws, then with a torque wrench, tighten to 11 ft-lb (132 in-lb, 15 N-m), using an alternating sequence. Finally use a breaker to twist each screw an additional 50º.

Here she is back in the bay:





I'm now trying to remember the best order to reconnect everything. So far, I've threaded the screws connecting the engine and transmission, installed the belts and side motor mount, and have routed the wiring harness to it's general location. Plugging in sensors next...

Holy Moses. This is amazing. How does it feel knowing how clean all your parts are as they go back in?

the engine looked pretty dry.Now that its a New engine,will you have to use break in oil?

charlieRobinson wrote:

Holy Moses. This is amazing. How does it feel knowing how clean all your parts are as they go back in?

It heightens the responsibility to keep everything perfect, and to uphold that standard all the way to completion - it slows me down. But it's satisfying at the same time knowing nothing was overlooked.

Quote :

the engine looked pretty dry.Now that its a New engine,will you have to use break in oil?

No special ingredients from the builder. He said to use 10w30 oil for break-in, changing after 200 miles. I'm assuming he used some assembly lube inside. I dumped oil over each rocker before installing the valve covers. Should be ok.

AGH! You dipped your SC needle bearings in parts cleaner!

.. I wouldn't be happy with that. They need their greese. I wouldn't risk any kind of parts cleaner getting in there, its asking for a bearing to die under rotor flutter.

Yeah, I hear you. I wasn't going to do it, but a friend made the suggestion, and I dipped it quickly. Not sure if the bearings got submerged or not. Guess we'll see how tough these blowers really are. I have a back-up on the shelf if I need it.

... in that pic, the bearings are submerged.

Send me the casing of your backup, I'll make it awesome and send it back.

Why did you use red Loctite? Red seems like it would be harder to remove in the future. I used blue when I changed my LIM gasket. I bet you are happy to have it almost all back together.

I guess because most of the fasteners I removed had red thread locker from GM. If they had it originally, I used red on them this time. I didn't see a single screw using blue.

Didn't apply very much, and didn't use the primer, so assuming the cure isn't quite as strong, especially with the aluminum parts (loc-tite doesn't work with alum so well).

Probably should have gone with blue now that you mention it.

EDIT: per GM shop manual, it is recommended to use RED (GM 272 P/N 12345493) or equivalent threadlocker to LIM and rocker arm screws. I also used it on the blower and flywheel screws.

AA wrote:

I guess because most of the fasteners I removed had red thread locker from GM. If they had it originally, I used red on them this time. I didn't see a single screw using blue.

Didn't apply very much, and didn't use the primer, so assuming the cure isn't quite as strong, especially with the aluminum parts (loc-tite doesn't work with alum so well).

Probably should have gone with blue now that you mention it.

Didn't know that about loc-tite not working with aluminum that well. Good to know. I guess it probably won't matter too much if you used red instead of blue. You went a long time before you had to remove them and with the new gasket you should be good to go for a while. I would be a little cautious about the bearings in the blower since they have submerged in parts cleaner. I have heard them going bad when people port their blowers and don't tape over them (although that involves aluminum shavings). I know they are replaceable, so you could change them out and keep it as a spare.

I'm reading a thread where some people say they have no trouble breaking loose red loctite cold:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/red-loctite-question-190683/

Plus a little tip on beeswax I never knew about!

Also, from page 2 of the above thread:

"The holding strength of LocTite has a lot to do with the area that it is holding together. A 1" thread has a lot more area than a 1/4" thread, so you can almost always break loose a 1/4" LocTited fastener by hand, but not the 1" fastener without heat. Always use a stronger grade of LocTite with smaller fasteners. With large ones, the weak blue LocTite is a good choice."

If this is correct, it would explain how I was able to break free all of the OEM fasteners, including flywheel screws, with relative ease. If not, it could mean the smaller fasteners will break more easily. Not quite sure on that.

Another link: http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/archive/index.php/t-969800.html

It's mentioned an impact gun helps shock the threads, breaking the loctite free. Good to know.

UPDATE: I tried to break loose one of the larger bolts holding the AC compressor to the block - it came out very easily. I installed with red Loc-Tite over a week ago. The thread locker had gelled, but not hardened, and offered little resistance that I could tell. I didn't heat or lube the bolt before turning it with a ratchet.

Engine is all in. Last night, on July 4th, I turned the key. The phoenix has risen! More details coming soon.